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Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth

 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:34 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
Agreed that the -1 rule makes more sense and that I prefer it, however, there's no doubt that when that rule was introduced that I stopped using Tactical troops.


Hi!

Once Magnus's cost formulas get applied, you may like them once more. Cheap and plentiful! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:46 am 
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I'm sure I will! We need to get these on to spreadsheets or some kind of documents to make them available to read somewhere other than the forum. I'm sure you have already considered this of course!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:54 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'm sure I will! We need to get these on to spreadsheets or some kind of documents to make them available to read somewhere other than the forum. I'm sure you have already considered this of course!


Hi!

I'm still tied up preparing for my re-certification in August, but yes, we'll be putting all that together with Mattman's formations.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
I actually prefer the rules change regarding Void Shields. I didn't like how any weapon, even a lowly Bolt Pistol, could strip a Void Shield.


Well I guess since you put it like that, then its valid, after all, it was the same in AT/SM1.

However, the actual weapon descriptions in SM2/TL can be misleading at times. In a way, I kind of see them as abstract descriptions as firepower ratings are in Epic 40k. Some units armed with bolters only shoot 15cm to 25cm and have 0 save modifier, while others have a range of 50cm, and a -2 save modifier. Whats the difference? Higher quality bolters with better skill? I dont think so. I think there is a mix of weapons there, and the weapon name is just there to give someone something to refer to, especially when there are a few different weapon systems.

In AT/SM1, a bolter was a bolter and everyone used the same statline. In SM2/TL, bolters vary. That might as well be called Weapon X, Weapon Y, and Weapon Z. But thats abstract, and most peeps hate that. I really believe this was the beginning of the turn though in Jervis's mind when he started to lean to Firepower's rating in Epic40k. Its like, who cares what weapons are mounted on a battlewagon? They might vary, but the system generally has these kinds of weapons, and they unleash this much destruction... why bother with naming them, just sum them up.

Anyway, so back to SM2/TL - my only major beef with the rule change is that units arent compensated for the loss in power. They still cost the same. So I am still shelling out 750 I think for a Tactical Company that used to be able to bring down void shields, who now might as well be flicking boogers at them. Actually, Titans point costs should have increased, not the other units.

I think if you are playing smaller games involving a titan or two per side, then you have to play SM2 rules. If you are playing larger, Titan heavy games, then I guess TL rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:34 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
I actually prefer the rules change regarding Void Shields. I didn't like how any weapon, even a lowly Bolt Pistol, could strip a Void Shield.


Well I guess since you put it like that, then its valid, after all, it was the same in AT/SM1.

However, the actual weapon descriptions in SM2/TL can be misleading at times. In a way, I kind of see them as abstract descriptions as firepower ratings are in Epic 40k. Some units armed with bolters only shoot 15cm to 25cm and have 0 save modifier, while others have a range of 50cm, and a -2 save modifier. Whats the difference? Higher quality bolters with better skill? I dont think so. I think there is a mix of weapons there, and the weapon name is just there to give someone something to refer to, especially when there are a few different weapon systems.

In AT/SM1, a bolter was a bolter and everyone used the same statline. In SM2/TL, bolters vary. That might as well be called Weapon X, Weapon Y, and Weapon Z. But thats abstract, and most peeps hate that. I really believe this was the beginning of the turn though in Jervis's mind when he started to lean to Firepower's rating in Epic40k. Its like, who cares what weapons are mounted on a battlewagon? They might vary, but the system generally has these kinds of weapons, and they unleash this much destruction... why bother with naming them, just sum them up.

Anyway, so back to SM2/TL - my only major beef with the rule change is that units arent compensated for the loss in power. They still cost the same. So I am still shelling out 750 I think for a Tactical Company that used to be able to bring down void shields, who now might as well be flicking boogers at them. Actually, Titans point costs should have increased, not the other units.

I think if you are playing smaller games involving a titan or two per side, then you have to play SM2 rules. If you are playing larger, Titan heavy games, then I guess TL rules.



Hi!

I agree with you point on lack of compensation to units that could no longer "hurt" titans.

Unfortunately the whole points system is based on nothing but air. Changing rules and not tweaking the points only made it worse.

Of course it is odd (and sort of funny) how much the legacy points values are ingrained (and defended) by many SM2/TL/Netepic players.

Heck, a lot of the few disagreements with the new points formulas were on how "different" the new value is compared to the old.

I realize that after playing the ruleset for over 20 years, you get used to the values. But there was no balance or structure behind the original points scheme.

Hopefully it won't take 20 years for people to accept the ones generated by the current formulas. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:51 pm 
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The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.

Also, if, like me, you played Eldar, it had absolutely no impact at all on Eldar titans ;).

The thing which did cause problems was the prevalence of titan battle groups, which were far too effective, and far too cheap. They were a no brainer. Three titans for the price of two was not smart thinking. Titan Legions made the game too titan friendly, but in terms of protecting them, rather in terms of making it easier and cheaper to field more of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:40 am 
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Irisado wrote:
The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.

Also, if, like me, you played Eldar, it had absolutely no impact at all on Eldar titans ;).

The thing which did cause problems was the prevalence of titan battle groups, which were far too effective, and far too cheap. They were a no brainer. Three titans for the price of two was not smart thinking. Titan Legions made the game too titan friendly, but in terms of protecting them, rather in terms of making it easier and cheaper to field more of them.


Hi!

I sometimes think they did not really know how to translate the effectiveness of infantry under AT/SM1 to SM2/TL. When they simplified them, it made for great ease of play, but the abstraction took away some of the effectiveness. Under the 1st edition system the tactical stand had an anti-personnel as well as an anti-armor stat. Made tacticals really useful.

I wholeheartedly agree on titan battle groups. Overkill, way to effective. That is why that was killed in the very first edition of net epic. Don't get me started on titan missions..... :'(

I think they had the right idea in 1st edition, but the execution was very cumbersome. They made good choices when they streamlined things for SM2/TL, but could never figure out how to make titans good, without being too good.

We struggle with that legacy until this day. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:19 am 
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No we don't! The removal of the front reactor has resulted in Titans being much more reliable! The balance is perfect now in my humble opinion! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.


Well, its like this. A tactical company, made up of 18 tactical marines in SM2, could all fire and knock down void shields.

In TL, none of those can, and the point values for the marines and the titans remained the same. One should have gotten cheaper for being less effective, or the other gotten more expensive due to the increased survivability of the unit.

Also keep in mind, in SM1, tactical squads essentially came in the form of one tactical stand and one support stand, and if I used 18 stands as above, then it would give me 9 missile launchers for support, and I could have used those against anyone. So TL really crushed these units to the point I am not even sure you can justifiably call them Space Marines.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:14 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
No we don't! The removal of the front reactor has resulted in Titans being much more reliable! The balance is perfect now in my humble opinion! ;)


Hi!

True, that simple change has worked wonders. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:16 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
Irisado wrote:
The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.


Well, its like this. A tactical company, made up of 18 tactical marines in SM2, could all fire and knock down void shields.

In TL, none of those can, and the point values for the marines and the titans remained the same. One should have gotten cheaper for being less effective, or the other gotten more expensive due to the increased survivability of the unit.

Also keep in mind, in SM1, tactical squads essentially came in the form of one tactical stand and one support stand, and if I used 18 stands as above, then it would give me 9 missile launchers for support, and I could have used those against anyone. So TL really crushed these units to the point I am not even sure you can justifiably call them Space Marines.



Hi!

Agreed. The original designers didn't have much thought on how one change impacted anything else, much less the cost.

Originally the game was predicated on the fact that anything could potential harm anything else. Once you made an exception for shielded units and left the cost of units that cannot harm shielded units the same, you have unbalanced the whole design of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:33 pm 
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primarch wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
Irisado wrote:
The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.


Well, its like this. A tactical company, made up of 18 tactical marines in SM2, could all fire and knock down void shields.

In TL, none of those can, and the point values for the marines and the titans remained the same. One should have gotten cheaper for being less effective, or the other gotten more expensive due to the increased survivability of the unit.

Also keep in mind, in SM1, tactical squads essentially came in the form of one tactical stand and one support stand, and if I used 18 stands as above, then it would give me 9 missile launchers for support, and I could have used those against anyone. So TL really crushed these units to the point I am not even sure you can justifiably call them Space Marines.



Hi!

Agreed. The original designers didn't have much thought on how one change impacted anything else, much less the cost.

Originally the game was predicated on the fact that anything could potential harm anything else. Once you made an exception for shielded units and left the cost of units that cannot harm shielded units the same, you have unbalanced the whole design of the game.

Primarch

My view is that GW corrected a problem with TL that existed in SM2, i.e. any weapon could strip void shields. True, the point costs probably should have been increased to reflect the change, but I'm not surprised they weren't. Of course, this whole issue goes back to one of the biggest differences between AT/SM1 and SM2/TL: the lack of separate weapon stats for infantry and vehicle/Titan. I know it would require a ton of work, but I wouldn't mind if new weapon stats were created for NetEpic to incorporate differences in firing against infantry and vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:17 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
KTG17 wrote:
Irisado wrote:
The role of Tactical Troops in SM2/Titan Legions wasn't to strip shield of titans in any case, it was to destroy opposing infantry and light vehicles. Taking out titan shields was always carried out more efficiently by units with multiple shot -1 save weapons, such as Space Marine Devastators. On that basis, the impact of the change was overestimated in my opinion.


Well, its like this. A tactical company, made up of 18 tactical marines in SM2, could all fire and knock down void shields.

In TL, none of those can, and the point values for the marines and the titans remained the same. One should have gotten cheaper for being less effective, or the other gotten more expensive due to the increased survivability of the unit.

Also keep in mind, in SM1, tactical squads essentially came in the form of one tactical stand and one support stand, and if I used 18 stands as above, then it would give me 9 missile launchers for support, and I could have used those against anyone. So TL really crushed these units to the point I am not even sure you can justifiably call them Space Marines.



Hi!

Agreed. The original designers didn't have much thought on how one change impacted anything else, much less the cost.

Originally the game was predicated on the fact that anything could potential harm anything else. Once you made an exception for shielded units and left the cost of units that cannot harm shielded units the same, you have unbalanced the whole design of the game.

Primarch

My view is that GW corrected a problem with TL that existed in SM2, i.e. any weapon could strip void shields. True, the point costs probably should have been increased to reflect the change, but I'm not surprised they weren't. Of course, this whole issue goes back to one of the biggest differences between AT/SM1 and SM2/TL: the lack of separate weapon stats for infantry and vehicle/Titan. I know it would require a ton of work, but I wouldn't mind if new weapon stats were created for NetEpic to incorporate differences in firing against infantry and vehicles.


Hi!

That is how AT/SM1 worked. I can understand why they shied away from it. The integration of titans and non-titans was messy, but I agree that perhaps the way they solved it caused more issues in the long run than it fixed.

I sometimes have this crazy idea of going back to the original rules and "fixing" them.

Perhaps the idea has some merit. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:08 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
No we don't! The removal of the front reactor has resulted in Titans being much more reliable! The balance is perfect now in my humble opinion! ;)


Is this the new version of NetEpic you're working on, or have I overlooked this in the core NetEpic rules?

Regarding Tactical Marines in SM2, I still can't see why you'd want to fire them at titans. As I alluded to previously, there are far better targets for them. I know that my Guardians (whose ranged capability is identical) never used to waste their fire power on titans, even when they could strip shields, because there were far better targets for them to shoot at.

I can't comment on SM1, because I didn't start playing until SM2 came out.

Oh, and I also agree about titan missions. They were awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:11 am 
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Well in some cases, like in our game, my warlord was right in front of his tactical detachment, and if I didnt make some amazing repair rolls I would have lost my Warlord, especially as he was facing my friend's volcano cannon (I blew off his Gatling Blaster thing).

Anyway, preview of Friday night's game: Orks vs Eldar.

Attachment:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1402528178.853886.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1402528178.853886.jpg [ 149.1 KiB | Viewed 1233 times ]


My friend has chosen Eldar so its me defend'n ma home turff!!! Haven't played Orks in SM2 in... oh over 10 years...

Stay tuned!!


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