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Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)

 Post subject: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Ok feedback from a couple of test games and bouncing the list off Mark W, Dan1314, and Richard L.

The current list is more tabletop viable than the previous incarnation and does do some cool stuff. Nicely done.

A few things that I have found to be really powerful; if you run a list with a cyclops, 2 car land train with bomb, and large unit of thudd guns (garrisoning off your blitz) you can really easily alpha strike out 3 of your opponent’s units before they have the chance to do anything to you at all. For me, the small/med/large unit mechanic should only apply to core choices. I’d also lose indirect on the cyclops missiles. The big units of thud guns are brutal good.

Especially, if you target enemy scouts etc. Coupled with the war engines they allow you really powerful control of the central board (already a big strength of squats). Don’t forget, even after the one shot war engine weapons have gone you you still have their super powerful conventional shooting and (which people often forget) really strong assault power (especially on the revamped cyclops).

The small units of bezerkers still seem undercosted to me, it’s a bit too easy to bulk up your activation count with them. Conversely, the thunderfires now seem a bit pricey for what you get.

A minor thing I find the limited application of spotter rather confusing, I’d either revert to the old rules or just scrap it.

Overall though, great to see this list back on track and in capable hands. Looking forward to the next iteration!

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Thanks Steve.

I'll try the Cylops/Thudd Gun/Land Train combo tomorrow. How many Thudd Guns, 10? And What was in the Land Train beside the bomb? Or was it just the bomb?

You're suggesting 200/375/525 for the Berzerkers?

We've been underwhelmed with Thunderfires so far as well. Thinking of trying them at 150 base.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Nice one Dave. I’d go back to Bezerkers at 8 for 200. No cheaper options. The issue is more activation boosting than unit effectiveness.

Personally, I think you’ll have the same issues with thunderfires at 150, for what they give the list they were worth 100 points, the issue was the fact you can use them to build a massive activation advantage. Personally, 3 for 150/175 seems fine. Think about them as a super squishy low power pylon without teleport!

The UK’s had no issue with 3 plus rhinos at that price (though the guns are a bit toned down and we don’t have the amazing land train aa option).

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Land train was bomb and flak car, thudd guns were the biggest unit possible, garrisoned off the blitz to fire into enemy deployment turn 1.

One other thing I wasn’t totally sure about, when playing medium and large infantry units I’ve also been adding extra hearthguard. That makes those units crazy good when in cover cos multiple inspiring. Not saying it needs changed, but one to keep an eye on. :-)

Thanks again for all your work on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Tried out the list Steve, didn't quite get to alpha strike anything.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=33534&p=627358

I'll give it a shot again tomorrow, Chris is bringing Speed Freaks I believe.

I'm going to give it a few more games but I'm leaning towards these changes at the moment.

Cap Rapiers to 0-3 as upgrades in Thunderer and Warrior formations
Drop Guild Squadron to 175/325/450
Drop Thunderfires to 125, +50 for extra
Drop Goliaths to 150/275/375

Anyone else played a game yet? Any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:23 am 
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Nice one Dave. Thanks for taking the time to play test. I’d say the bomb battle car train is the key piece against high armour units like chaos marines. Plus, unlike goliaths it’s not made of balsa wood.

That trio doesn’t work every time, and things which can hide a lot of units off board are good counters (eg necrons, air marines, dark eldar) but it’s pretty brutal against everything else, and a rather dull playstyle. I think rebalancing towards more of the assaulting ghaz style rather than a minimum core gunline would be great.

Changes look solid to me, my only thought would be 125 does allow for a bit of activation spam, so maybe 150 or 175 for 3 with no option for 2? Need to properly play test/think it through though.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:23 pm 
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I thought about the base 3 for the Thunderfires, but with them coming in packs of 2 I wanted to give people the option to use them. Maybe 150 for 2, +25 for a third? It's a no-brainer upgrade but at least people would get to use 2 if they only had 2 models.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:13 pm 
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If I get to game and paint epic again, it'll be with Squats. I'd prefer to see more war engines, but maybe that's because I just want to see more of my old collection in use (and can pick up land trains easier than infantry bases). Is there another way to go about restricting war engines than a 1/3 restriction? What's to stop allowing up to 1/2? To prevent spam of one particular engine, can a 0-1 per war engine be part of the easing of cost restrictions? There's just so much in that section to be so limited (in my objectively bad opinion).

I like the thought of a mere 25 point upgrade to Thunderfires. Can it be upped to a base 2, +1-2 at 25 points per without destroying something?

Otherwise, it's a nice list! Only minor quibbles on stats, but for the most part it all seems quite logical and reasonable. Delighted to see the list progressing.


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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I thought about the base 3 for the Thunderfires, but with them coming in packs of 2 I wanted to give people the option to use them. Maybe 150 for 2, +25 for a third? It's a no-brainer upgrade but at least people would get to use 2 if they only had 2 models.


Totally your call sir. I’d always suggest just going with what works for the list rather than how the old models were packaged. Especially, as there’s now loads of amazing proxies. But that is just me! Agree the 25 point upgrade would be a no brainer.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:49 am 
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Doomkitten wrote:
Is there another way to go about restricting war engines than a 1/3 restriction? What's to stop allowing up to 1/2? To prevent spam of one particular engine, can a 0-1 per war engine be part of the easing of cost restrictions? There's just so much in that section to be so limited (in my objectively bad opinion).


It's just generally the rule rather than the exception for the non-theme lists, most use the 1/3 restriction to make it a combined arms conflict. Inevitably someone like yourself wants more WEs though and we get the "titan" lists: AMTL, Fir Iolarion, OBGyM, etc. I see no reason why the Squats shouldn't have a list like that, I just don't think the base list should be that list.

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I like the thought of a mere 25 point upgrade to Thunderfires. Can it be upped to a base 2, +1-2 at 25 points per without destroying something?


A 4 strong unit is significantly harder to break (enemies would have to kill 2, or shoot with two formations killing 1), and probably worth more than 200.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Dave wrote:
It's just generally the rule rather than the exception for the non-theme lists, most use the 1/3 restriction to make it a combined arms conflict. Inevitably someone like yourself wants more WEs though and we get the "titan" lists: AMTL, Fir Iolarion, OBGyM, etc. I see no reason why the Squats shouldn't have a list like that, I just don't think the base list should be that list.


Fair enough, theme's the theme. I've always felt the theme leaned *slightly* heavier to war engines, hence wondering if perhaps a 1/2 would still have a combined arms theme but push war engines more to the fore. I admit, I'm a train addict.

I suppose the next question would be to any of the experts out there, how viable would a war engine based list, using this list as a step-off point, be?


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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:03 am 
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Someone else here has already said it, but Helbores and Exo Armour should be added along with the under appreciated War Balloon.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Exo Armour is in the list, Warlords have it. War Balloons weren't a Squat unit as far as I'm aware, I think you're thinking of the Dwarf unit from Man o' War. Hellbores weren't a Squat unit either, IG could take them.

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Hi Dave,

I think you've done a great job of trying to re create the old squat list in the Armageddon version of Epic. So far, the only things I can't seem to find are the old Squat Iron Breaker Squadron, which is 9 stands of warriors with an attached Warlord stand, and two berserker units of five berserker stands per unit and one hearthguard per unit, and they are all transported in a Squat Leviathan.

The second one I can't find is from Citadel Journal (I only mention this one because I noticed you added some other things from the Citadel Journal in this list). It is the Doomanvil Squadron, which consists of two Squat Cyclops, and one Squat Colossus with accompanying Iron Eagle Gyrocopter.

I realize that special characters are not really a thing in the Armageddon version of epic which is why I'm not really saying anything about Grand Warlord Grimtrek from Citadel Journal.

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to try to work out the points so they are fair when trying to bring the Squats into epic Armageddon so I think I understand why those two cards were not included.

Something I did notice when taking a look through the old squat list in the back of the old Titan Legions 2nd edition book is that it lists the Squat Land Train Engine as a super heavy Tanks (which I believe in Epic Armageddon are being called War Engines) but the Land Train Battle Cars are listed as simply being Vehicles.

I'm not sure if that would somehow help you to adjust the points for a better points spread or more fair point spread or whatever but I thought I would bring it to your attention. One suggestion is to have the Land Train Engine come from the allotment of points from the War Engine section of the list, while the actual battle cars cannot be taken by anything other than the Land Train Engine, but have their points come from the Support Formations section, as they are adding their support to the Land Train Engine.

I wanted to discuss a little bit about both of your recent battle reports that you have put up in the battle report section where Squats were used.

For some reason, when I read through both of the lists in both of those battle reports, before I even read anything else, I knew that the squats were going to lose the battle in each case. At first it was just a feeling that I had that I couldn't shake. I didn't think and don't think it had anything to do with the skills of either player as I saw some brilliant moves from both of you, but i think it does have something to do with what the Squats can get in their lists.

After re-examining the lists over and over again, I noticed quite a disparity in the firepower of the Squat lists compared to the other two lists. While the Eldar were able to take plenty of jetbikes, which somewhat match the Squat bikes, they were also able to take far more regular vehicles with with heavier firepower than small arms armed rhino's, which seemed to be all the Squats had besides their War Engines. And once those War Engines are taken out, it seems the Squats really don't have much left as far as heavier firepower goes (note I am not necessarily talking about the Firepower stat line).

I think this is one of the biggest challenges of trying to put the Squats into the Epic Armageddon game. Armageddon doesn't seem to be set up to allow for the entire design of the Squat army. It was designed around a lot of super heavy war engines dominating the battlefield and only supported by some small troops and bikes. While other armies were designed to have masses of troops and regular vehicles with lots of firepower (such as the massive amount of Fire Prisms the Eldar in your report were able to field) with only a few War Engines in support.

If the Squats had more regular sized vehicles with things as powerful as even a lascannon on them then I could see the Squats fitting in the game quite easily, but they don't. So this makes it hard to fit them in at all. I am wondering if there is a way we could fit more War Engines into the list as maybe a special ability of the Engineers Guild to field more of them than a standard Armageddon list would normally have. The Imperial Guard can do it so why can't the Squats?

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 Post subject: Re: Grindel Stronghold Squat List - 2018-05-15 (aka v1.7)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
If the Squats had more regular sized vehicles with things as powerful as even a lascannon on them then I could see the Squats fitting in the game quite easily, but they don't. So this makes it hard to fit them in at all. I am wondering if there is a way we could fit more War Engines into the list as maybe a special ability of the Engineers Guild to field more of them than a standard Armageddon list would normally have. The Imperial Guard can do it so why can't the Squats?


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