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some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)

 Post subject: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Hi,

As part of some of the Play testing me and Steve KCole were doing for the squats, we were thinking of trying a few changes out. Just thought I'd see what some other Squat players thought first.
(1) bikes as a core unit, but cannot take trikes unless taken as support. (Allows a themed biker list)
(2) Warriors with a Leviathan at a discount(say 600 for formation) as neither these units seem optimal or popular
(3) allowing thunderfires to take a hearthguard leader at cost to help them to rally if broken and be at least effective again(in our games they seem awfully easy to break just by virtue of being shot at?

Thoughts? Decent ideas or just a wishlist? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:44 am 
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Hi Mark,

No problems with the ideas, I would comment as follows though:

(1) I would rather see the list as is finished and then Bikers as a core choice come in as part of a variant list.
(2) Yes, I understand this problem and we may have to look at the Leviathan costing/restrict Berserkers taking them.
(3) Thunderfires are the main bug-bear that I have, formation size/cost/range etc. Being able to give the formation leader is an option to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:29 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Hi Mark,

No problems with the ideas, I would comment as follows though:

(1) I would rather see the list as is finished and then Bikers as a core choice come in as part of a variant list.
(2) Yes, I understand this problem and we may have to look at the Leviathan costing/restrict Berserkers taking them.
(3) Thunderfires are the main bug-bear that I have, formation size/cost/range etc. Being able to give the formation leader is an option to consider.


Obviously, as Mark and I came up with these changes together, I think they're certainly worth considering. For me the bike change is the easiest as just moving a unit from Support to Core (with a minor tweak). FYI we were trying Thunderfires with entrench rules in most of our games. It makes a bit of difference but as Mark says they remain super fragile. I'd probably trade entrench for the hearthguard just as it makes them a bit harder suppress but you have to think more carefully about placement.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:36 am 
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All valid points, I would sat though that we adding bikers to the core of the main list adds a further reason not to take Warriors and so would not look to do that to this list.

Thunderfires I am thinking should be treated more like the IG static artillery and given the chance to either have emplacements or a transport vehicle - thinking here of Rhinos with a reduced movement when towing.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:57 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
All valid points, I would sat though that we adding bikers to the core of the main list adds a further reason not to take Warriors and so would not look to do that to this list.

Thunderfires I am thinking should be treated more like the IG static artillery and given the chance to either have emplacements or a transport vehicle - thinking here of Rhinos with a reduced movement when towing.


That makes sense with the thunderfires, especially has proven a workable system. Any thoughts on the Leviathan? Our thinking for the points drop was deducting the points of the rhinos (40-50 in chaos lists) plus the fact the synergy is good but not great (slows up the unit, using the hellfury cannon with spotter means the infantry don't shoot, etc)

It's a fair call with bikes, though IMO warriors are sub-par at the moment anyway so I tend not to take them. Bikes would give more option in core but as they can't get in cover or move through terrain easily I don't see them replacing infantry or bezerkers, maybe just makes Bezerker spam less likely?

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Realistically the only way to bring the cost of the Leviathan down is to tone it down as at 375pts it is a very good war engine. However if it is moved back in to the WE section it loses out to its more expensive cousins.

I currently feel that this might have to be one of those units that just does not fit in with the list in smaller games. Larger games it works perfectly providing a solid slow moving transport up the table.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:08 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Realistically the only way to bring the cost of the Leviathan down is to tone it down as at 375pts it is a very good war engine. However if it is moved back in to the WE section it loses out to its more expensive cousins.

I currently feel that this might have to be one of those units that just does not fit in with the list in smaller games. Larger games it works perfectly providing a solid slow moving transport up the table.


Agree it's good in larger games, but while yes it's a very good war engine, I don't think it plus a regiment of warriors is a 675 points of good regiment. By contrast, Eldar guardians with wraithlords and wraithguard are 475 and Krieg with 20 infantry stands + 2 Gorgons are also 475.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:16 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Realistically the only way to bring the cost of the Leviathan down is to tone it down as at 375pts it is a very good war engine. However if it is moved back in to the WE section it loses out to its more expensive cousins..


A slightly less controversial request, would it be possible to have the Leviathan available as a transport in the core section and stand alone in the WE section in the next update? It might be sub optimal compared to the colossus, land train etc but would then be possible to have one at less than 550-675pts. Certainly I'd happily take one and I think other Squat players who just like the model would too. ;) and like you said, it could then be taken as a transport in larger games for Squat players who want as many cool war engine models as possible.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
All valid points, I would sat though that we adding bikers to the core of the main list adds a further reason not to take Warriors and so would not look to do that to this list.
Thunderfires I am thinking should be treated more like the IG static artillery and given the chance to either have emplacements or a transport vehicle - thinking here of Rhinos with a reduced movement when towing.


I think rhinos towing would be the best option for this thunderfires, for mobility and resistance to being broken, just didn't think it was on the cards as I remember Mosc really wasn't keen on the idea for old background reasons. But it's tried and tested. And we want to get this list approved, right?

Bikes could feature in a supplementary list, (though I'm sure I'll see them taken by Steve soon!)
Are there future Squat lists planned where bikes as core might make a good fit?

Just generally, do people also think a slight reduction in the price of warriors(say 275 even) might make this a more attractive unit?

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 12:44 am 
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Anyone? The squats will be playing in the London tournament this weekend so we can provide some feedback on how they fare in a competitive setting.

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 Post subject: Re: some ideas for changes to Thurgrimm 1.5(playtesting)
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:21 am 
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Feed back is always welcome and appreciated.

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