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Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51

 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:20 pm 
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"Looks like squats are back on the menu boys!"

Said the Hive Mind to... itself...


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:35 pm 
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Thanks guys for all the feedback already provided. I've decided to make an official thread just for feedback and Wishlisting. If you could take all the discussion there (even straight copy these posts) that would be great!

(Save this thread just for errors and typos in the 1.51 posting


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:46 am 
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Mark and I played a couple of games of minigeddon (1k) with Squats last night - we both agreed at 1k they definitely don't need the spotter rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:01 pm 
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I've found that at 1k Squats are very powerful, even with just basic warriors!


What army list did you have?


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:30 pm 
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I took
Bezerkers
Bikes
Overlord
2 car land train

Mark was the same but with gyros instead of bikes. We played once have each as squats and one as eldar. Result was a draw (on turn 5) and a win for the squats.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:01 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
I took
Bezerkers
Bikes
Overlord
2 car land train

Mark was the same but with gyros instead of bikes. We played once have each as squats and one as eldar. Result was a draw (on turn 5) and a win for the squats.


I don't think you can expect the lists to be balanced at all point levels. 3000pts is the accepted standard and if the army is balanced there that would be good enough. If you are finding it op at smaller sizes then just change what you take


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:47 am 
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Of course, it was a play test anyway. Minigeddon has its own race specific changes to provide balance so the point was more that in a 1k game the spotter rule is not valid (just like eldar don't get farsight etc in minigeddon).

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:38 am 
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I'll be taking the Squats to CanCon this year, a last hurrah before Elsaurio gets into the guts of them

Will report on my prep and successes!

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:09 pm 
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Played a game Tuesday night against the Red Corsairs. My list is being trialed for Cancon in early January

My List
3 x Berzerker brotherhoods (1 in termites)
2 x Overlords Units
2 x Thunderfires Units
2 x Bike Guilds (max trikes and grand warlord in one)
1 x Iron Eagles (3 upgraded)
1 x Mole Mortars
1 x Colossus
1 x Train (Zerk Car and Rad Bomb Car)

Was a loss to the chaos in turn 4 as neither of us managed an objective for turn 3.
My thunderfires were shut down by 2 thunderhawks sniping them from max battlecannon range and Mole Mortars were wiped out in the first activation having being left out of Flakk bubble range...

What worked; the 2 Macro Barrages while not scoring big numbers of kills, were comfortably putting blast markers on multiple units.
Overlords are the bee's knees - their speed and output really damaged enemy units every turn - 1 even killed a Daemon Prince in assault! This of course means the Iron Eagles struggle to compare for the cost - their speed is welcome, but I have the zerkers and bikes for speed.

Happy with my list and its performance, though will be trading out the Gyro's for another Overlord - cheesy, but thems the breaks.

I'll get a more detailed report for the next one,

Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:27 am 
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Hi

I expect everyone is now aware that NetEA Squats are going to need some changes if they are going to be used at tournaments.

Squats were allowed to go to the Cancon Epic tournament, but the organiser has been absolutely clear that they will not be allowed to participate again in their current form. It was widely panned as overpowered and underpriced, to the extent where I felt sorry for the people who took the Squat forces and were facing criticism. Last weekend I heard two other Tournament Organisers also say they wouldn't allow them to be fielded in their current form at a tournament they host.

I have been asked by several people to run through the list and see if there are suggestions for changes that would make this list more acceptable to opponents while still playable. Here is a draft list of suggestions and ideas - note that this isn't intended to be a hatchet job, and includes some price drop suggestions as well as increases.

First, a quick glance at what the problem might be:

Here is my first stab at making a Squats list. It has 13 activations (7 of them war engines) more than 40 Battlecannons, 8 Anti-Air armed Formations, a tremendous Titan-Killing war engine, 24 autocannons and a selection of infantry, bikes, tunnellers and bomb templates.

BERZERKER BROTHERHOOD [200]
1 Hearthguard unit, 4 Rhino, Upgraded: 7 Berzerker units

BERZERKER BROTHERHOOD [175]
1 Hearthguard unit, 5 Berzerker units, 3 Rhino

BERZERKER BROTHERHOOD [175]
1 Hearthguard unit, 5 Berzerker units, 3 Termite Tunneller

BIKERS GUILD [275]
3 Guild Bike unit, Grand Warlord, 3 Guild trike

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

OVERLORD [250]
Overlord Airship

THUNDERFIRE [100]
2 Thunderfire

THUNDERFIRE [100]
2 Thunderfire

CYCLOPS [475]
1 Cyclops

As far as I know, there is nowhere in the game to buy battle cannons so cheaply in such large numbers, or to gain so many cheap war engines with anti-air. It could probably be fine-tuned further, but the point is it is easy to make an incredibly powerful 3000pt army.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:21 am 
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Suggestions for consideration:

0-1 Grand Warlord:
This costs 50pts to add to a Bikers Guild unit or a surprising 125 to add to a Brotherhood (infantry) unit due to the 'The Grand Warlord character must be added to a Warlord or Guildmaster unit.' rule. This leads to the SC frequently being added to a bike unit for no other reason (that I can see) other than the huge 75pt price difference.

I recommend that this is changed to 'The Grand Warlord character must be added to a Warlord, Hearthguard or Guildmaster unit.' at a cost of 75pts.
This is an apparent increase from 50pts to 75pts, but in effect makes it 50pts cheaper to take the SC in either the Warrior Brotherhood unit or Berzerker Brotherhood unit.

"Thunderfire - Two Thunderfire units 100pts.
Add one Thunderfire for +75 points, add four Warriors for +100 points"
The pricing of this unit doesn't fit with the way prices usually work in epic; adding a unit as an upgrade is almost always the same or cheaper than the original unit cost.

I recommend this is changed to
Thunderfire - Three Thunderfire units 150pts.
This makes buying 3 Thunderfires cheaper (by 25pts), but makes it harder to spam them as cheap activations.

Overlord Airship 250
May buy up to two additional Overlord Airships for +225 points each


This is currently the single most contentious unit in the Squat list. I don't think I have ever seen a unit so consistently criticised, particularly by the people who faced 5 at a time, but as you can see from my post above it's not hard to make a list with more.

Weapons Loadout:
[] 3 x Battlecannons AP4+/AT4+
[] 3 x Battlecannons AP4+/AT4+
[] 4 x Autocannons AP5+/AT6+
[] Flak Cannons AA5+
[] Bomb Rack BP2
[] Small Bolter Array EA(+1)
[] Overlord Designator Spotter

Having compared them to peers and also played against them, the issue is pretty clearly that they have a remarkable amount of firepower that is unique at this points size.
I recommend they are made cheaper and changed as follows.

225pts
WE DC3 20cm 4+ Reinforced Armour
[] 3 x Battlecannons AP4+/AT4+ (not fixed arc)
[] 2 x Autocannons AP5+/AT6+
[] Small Bolter Array EA(+1)

or with their price dropping further to 200pts

WE DC3 20cm 5+ Reinforced Armour
[] 3 x Battlecannons AP4+/AT4+ (not fixed arc)
[] 2 x Autocannons AP5+/AT6+
[] Small Bolter Array EA(+1)

6 Battle cannons are just too many, and while I am sure Squat players enjoy firing them we have to accept they will prevent this list getting through to approved at this price.

The very popular suggestion to make the unit much more expensive makes it into more of a glasscannon IMHO; even with all thse guns, it will still die. Hence my suggestion to make it a bit cheaper and arm it in a way that makes it easier to balance.

The reason why I am suggesting 3 Battlecannons rather than the previous suggestion of 3 fixed arc (90 degrees) left and 3 fixed arc right is because it would be far simpler to use the model if it was assumed 3 of the mounted BC are always able to point at a target than to use fiddly fixed arcs to represent the way all 6 cannons could never simultaneously do so.

Iron Eagle Gyrocopter - Gain Spotter, no price increase. If spotter is to be in the list, it makes more sense for it to be on a Gyrocopter type unit than on the ubiquitious Overlord.

Or
Spotter - drop this rule.

Land Train WE 15cm 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Change to
Land Train WE 15cm 4+ CC5+ FF4+
It is easier to justify 5+ close combat for a Train carriage than 4+.
If the train has carriages with Berserkers in them, these are already represented by Small arms +1 EA AND (base) +1 EA, so it would still be good in assaults.

Cyclops
This war engine is an amazing war engine-killer. 6 x90cm AT2+ Missiles followed by a battlecannon and then MW2+ TK D6+1 strip void shields and murder many Reaver class titans. That makes it a great unit, but also almost certainly underpriced at 475pts.
I recommend it is given a reaver-class price tag to match its abilities.
As a range-orientated war engine it should probably not be CC4+ but CC5+

Collossus
Underpriced at 450 when compared to similar Warengines. It's DC5 so should be cheaper than a reaver (despite being better armed), but not by a full 200pts. 550?

Mole Mortar
I suggest it loses Disrupt and gains Ignore Cover.

Berserkers
Remain as they are, but Termite Tunnellers become a 25pt upgrade (currently a no-brainer formation at 175pts+free termite).
OR
remove Termite tunnellers, as this unit has a surprising total of 3 tunneller options; Termite Tunneller Free / Mole Tunneller 50pts / Hellbore Tunneller 125pts

Living Ancestor
"Leader, Ancient Wisdom (Squat player may ignore the -1 penalty to retain for any one formation per turn)."
It's either not worth 50pts if it used before rolling to retain (because it works only once per turn, and there is only a 1/6 chance that it is going help this particular roll) and should be made cheaper
Or
It's easily worth 50pts if it is used after rolling to retain (after seeing it failed, and that it failed by just one).

I recommend if it is not the latter, then the price of this upgrade is dropped to 25pts.

Goliath Mega Cannon
DC2. Critical Hit: Every unit within 15cm takes a BM, Goliath destroyed.
That's harsh to the Squats, who are usually clustered around a corner with the big guns. Assuming this isn't to represent a psychological effect, perhaps a hit on 5+ on all within 5cm would be less punishing.



I hope these suggestions are helpful, and again I feel I should stress they are not intended to be a hatchet job to nerf Squats. This is more to bring them a bit down to earth and make it so both the Squat player and their opponent is confident their wins and losses are more to do with Epic's fun combination of skill and luck and less to do with army selection.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:32 am 
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Cheers Matt, good constructive feedback, but I think the Overlord should be cheaper with the loss of 3 battlecannons and the all important Spotter/Designator rule - otherwise agree with most of what you said - just need Ben to come out with some trial lists so we can start testing!


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:25 am 
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Some really good thoughts there Matt, I'll briefly summarise my thoughts below rather than cut/pasting everything (hope that makes sense)

Grand Warlord - I think your logic of why he goes on bikes is dead right. Personally I think a straight 50pt upgrade for a Sup Com is fine across the board. No idea why some armies seem to pay 50 and others pay 100 (Gaurd for example) when it's the same ability. For 75 perhaps he combines the roles of warlord and ancestor?

Thunderfires - I think your suggestion makes sense but in that case I'd reckon they should have an option for a gun emplacement same as DKOK or pay 25pts for Rhino transports.


Overlords- I would go with this one, totally agree that making them more expensive is not the way

225pts
WE DC3 20cm 4+ Reinforced Armour
[] 3 x Battlecannons AP4+/AT4+ (not fixed arc)
[] 2 x Autocannons AP5+/AT6+
[] Small Bolter Array EA(+1)

Land Train - I agree with your idea here:

Land Train WE 15cm 4+ CC4+ FF4+
Change to
Land Train WE 15cm 4+ CC5+ FF4+
It is easier to justify 5+ close combat for a Train carriage than 4+.
If the train has carriages with Berserkers in them, these are already represented by Small arms +1 EA AND (base) +1 EA, so it would still be good in assaults.

But with the proviso that squats need a better scout option. When you look at what Eldar Rangers do for their points I think the iron eagle options in squats really is damn ordinary. Too expensive for what it does and probably too tough, reduce the armour and the points so that you can get a decent screening unit and provide a tactical option to protect your trains.

Cyclops - Must admit I don't agree at all about the reaver level price tag for this thing. It's one shot a turn might murder a reaver but that's all it's going to do. Most comps are pretty lacking in the big war engine department. The missiles are one shot only and need a sustained fire action to work etc. I'd be more inclined to reduce the main gun to D3+1 before I worried about raising it's points.

Colossus - Again I think you are underestimating the significance of a slow fat machine compared to a reaver, also a machine that activates on a 2+ vs one that goes on a 1+. It does have solid armament if you are willing to sit still to shoot.

Mole Mortar - Makes sense though that's just doubling up with mega cannons which I'd imagine is why they stuck to disrupt? Also I doubt people realise how tough it is to get the shots happening with their really limited range 31-60cms is the only effective range on these things.

Goliath mega Cannon - Agreed on the current crit being a bit nuts in range.

Berzerkers - I don't think this unit needs changing at all. You pay a penalty in activations for turn 1-2 by using tunneler for starters and it's important to remember this is an army with no flyers/teleporters or particularly rapid moving units. The only good blitz threatening squats can do are tunnels or rhinos...

Anyway just my thoughts, do with as you like.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:38 am 
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Hi Matt, good points some I agree on some I don't. Can I suggest you take a look at the epic uk list which has been thriving an extensive play testing process with some of the best players in Europe (& me and Mark). It's cracked a lot of the things you're suggesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm Stronghold v1.51
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:14 am 
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Shadowlord, you'll find that many of us are in agreement with your suggested changes and they're on the list of 'items to changed very soon'

The cost of warlords, the tiny size of thunderfires, the cheapness of the bezerker tunnellers are all being looked at.

We've already had a look at the War Engines (see the experimental rules floating around with all WE's going to 5+ CC). The only point I disagree on is that I think the Cyclops is less useful than it looks on paper, and the Colossus is surprisingly better.

You proposed stat changes on the overlord is interesting. I have the European players in one ear screaming at me to not change a thing, whereas the Australian players such as yourself and Jim tearing out half the guns.

My current gut feel and calculations are to knock it down to 4 battle cannons, with the same fire arc as it has now. (Nobody complains about the Autocannons or Bombs). Having the fire arcs means that the Overlord usually has to 'jostle' a bit each turn to line up shots denying them the +1 sustain, which is a fluffy nerf.

I agree with your points completely about changing the points value, as it's already too much of a glass cannon.

I'm going to have to revamp the AA completely, and thinking that the overlord will lose it's flak. AA is an army-wide problem and not really part of an individual unit.


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