Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Let's talk War Engines

 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6396
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Question: is the idea to have an a la carte build of the train, and these are just examples? Or are you thinking these are the only builds allowed for the train for the Thurgrimm list?

Rad Bomb: feels awfully weird to have something like a rad bomb striking a single (potentially small) target. The list doesn't necessarily need more TK. If you want to unlink the rad bomb from the rest of the train in terms of armament, give it an orbital bombardment template that can't be combined with regular templates. It's a one shot, so you could price it to whatever.

Siege Mortar with a MW sounds fine, but you'll need to call it something other than a siege mortar so it doesn't end up conflicting with other lists/armaments.

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1411
I like the assault build the most though it does look overpowered. In particular 50 point bezerker cars with AA shooting. Dragon cart looks good but might be more 100 points than 75.

Need to have a think about the others.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:18 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Still not in favour of an artillery style train. It's just not needed in the list.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:17 pm
Posts: 119
Location: Toronto, Canada
Of the three options I also think the Assault Land Train looks the most interesting/fun.
Given that it's likely going to be my BTS, my preference would always be to add more cheap carts (to boost the DC and void shields) rather than few powerful carts. This is even more the case if I'm charging this thing right into the heart of the enemy...
I like your idea for the carts, and all 4 have unique useful functions. However I agree with Steve that we might still need to tone them down a little.
Here's one option - using your build as starting point:

Rad Bomb
Cost: 100pts
Rad Bomb: 60cm MW 2+ TK(D3) Single Shot.
Radiation Vents: EA +1 FF MW
I dont know how to cost this - a deathstrike has unlimited range and TK(d6) for 100pts. Maybe if this was slow-firing, rather than single shot? Though the EA(+1) FF MW is pretty good too.

Siege Mortar
Cost: 100pts
Siege Mortar: 60cm BP1 MW 
I dont think that it needs a FF/CC option - that could be what the other carts are for. (having assault EA and the MW BP makes it an auto-include. Without FF/CC EA, then I have to make a choice what I want my train to focus on). Guessing 100pts since it's only range 60 and no Indirect?

Dragon
Cost: 75pts
30/(45?)cm 4 x AP4+ Ignore cover
Incendiary bombs: EA(+1) FF Ignore Cover
I suspect 60cm on a flamethrower might raise eyebrows... Also EA(+2) means i am definitely spamming these - if i take four I get 14 dice at FF4+.


Berzerker
Cost: 75pts
Each cart increases CC value by 1 up to a maximum of 2+
EA(+1) CC
AA Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+
- this seems a good choice at 75pts, but unlikely to take more than one since extra FF attacks on the other carts are more valuable.

So, lets looks at some builds.
First build is one Berzerker and 3 Dragon for an assault train.
500pts, DC6, 4 Void Shields. 12x AP4+ IC at 30cm, and the two Thunderers at 30cm, but only the 60cm 3BP MW beyond that (+ one crappy autocannon). 6DC + 4EA = 10 dice in assault assuming at least one enemy in base contact. I like this build, but is 12x AP4+ too much?

Second build - One Siege Mortar, 3 Rad bombs for a tank/WE-hunter
600pts, DC6, 4 Void Shields. 60cm 4 BP MW, 3x 60cm MW2+ TK(D3) Single Shot, 9 dice in firefight. That is probably comparable power with a Reaver Titan with similar loadout?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:54 pm
Posts: 306
Moscovian wrote:
Question: is the idea to have an a la carte build of the train, and these are just examples? Or are you thinking these are the only builds allowed for the train for the Thurgrimm list?

Rad Bomb: feels awfully weird to have something like a rad bomb striking a single (potentially small) target. The list doesn't necessarily need more TK. If you want to unlink the rad bomb from the rest of the train in terms of armament, give it an orbital bombardment template that can't be combined with regular templates. It's a one shot, so you could price it to whatever.


These are just brainstorming ideas to build a train that is interesting and brings something tactically different to the list.

I've included TK since TK and even MW is something that is rare/missing from the squat list. One of the complaints currently is that the Cyclops is sometimes seen as a 'must take' to deal with potential titans.

I'm okay with the Rad Missile being TK(D3) single shot. It looks like a half sized Deathstrike missle and so can have stats to match. (Deathstrikes have large blast templates in 40K, but are single target in Epic)

I agree that in the old rules it was more of a barrage weapon, but keeping it so means that it runs into the problem of it mechanically interfering with the Doomsday Cannon barrage BP. And it seems odd that the missile is nothing more than an upgrade to a artillery cannnon.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am
Posts: 113
Location: Washington State, USA.
I've always thought that the Squat War Engines compared to Titans, not other super heavy vehicles (now called War Engines). So arming them up with titan killing weapons and Macro Weapons seems the right thing to do. Especially since there doesn't seem to be much of that sort of thing available to the squats in the Thurgrim list.

And GW thought that they were similar to titans as well which is why Squat War Engines are the only Super Heavy Vehicles in the game that got crew experience (even if it was only in citadel journal).

_________________
Resident Squat Army Fanatic


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:54 pm
Posts: 306
taiaha wrote:
I like your idea for the carts, and all 4 have unique useful functions. However I agree with Steve that we might still need to tone them down a little.


On paper these options might look like a lot of firepower, but they are incredibly short ranged. One of the balancing rules is that with short ranged firepower you need that firepower to balance out, as you may miss turns being in range, need to double etc.

A 20cm move unit with 30cm weapons is going to have a tough time finding appropriate targets each turn.

Quote:

Here's one option - using your build as starting point:

Rad Bomb
Cost: 100pts
Rad Bomb: 60cm MW 2+ TK(D3) Single Shot.
Radiation Vents: EA +1 FF MW
I dont know how to cost this - a deathstrike has unlimited range and TK(d6) for 100pts. Maybe if this was slow-firing, rather than single shot? Though the EA(+1) FF MW is pretty good too.



i had forgotten about slow-firing, that's a good suggestion. 100pts seems about right as it's adding 1 DC and 1Void sheild (which get more powerful as they stack up).

Quote:

Siege Mortar
Cost: 100pts
Siege Mortar: 60cm BP1 MW 
I dont think that it needs a FF/CC option - that could be what the other carts are for. (having assault EA and the MW BP makes it an auto-include. Without FF/CC EA, then I have to make a choice what I want my train to focus on). Guessing 100pts since it's only range 60 and no Indirect?


I'd like each cart to have some sort of CC/FF option. It might be auto include but you're only going to have one so we can live with it. The other option is to increase the basic engine to 4BP for 100 points (as per the artillery option below) and make this cart something more interesting

Quote:

Dragon
Cost: 75pts
30/(45?)cm 4 x AP4+ Ignore cover
Incendiary bombs: EA(+1) FF Ignore Cover
I suspect 60cm on a flamethrower might raise eyebrows... Also EA(+2) means i am definitely spamming these - if i take four I get 14 dice at FF4+.


Berzerker
Cost: 75pts
Each cart increases CC value by 1 up to a maximum of 2+
EA(+1) CC
AA Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+
- this seems a good choice at 75pts, but unlikely to take more than one since extra FF attacks on the other carts are more valuable.

So, lets looks at some builds.
First build is one Berzerker and 3 Dragon for an assault train.
500pts, DC6, 4 Void Shields. 12x AP4+ IC at 30cm, and the two Thunderers at 30cm, but only the 60cm 3BP MW beyond that (+ one crappy autocannon). 6DC + 4EA = 10 dice in assault assuming at least one enemy in base contact. I like this build, but is 12x AP4+ too much?


12xAP4+ is pretty crappy. It's 7 infantry hits at very short range. i can take two Thudd Gun units and deal 8 infantry hits at much longer range and indirect. Plus if this train is focusing on AP then it's not bringing much else to the table. The rest of the squat army is great at AP, and they need to War Engines to deal with tanks or titans.

Secondly you can build a train with one bezerker and three dragon cars NOW in 1.5 and get a better unit! (longer range on all the engine weapons, still 12xAP+) and it's a build that no-one seems to want totake.

Quote:
Second build - One Siege Mortar, 3 Rad bombs for a tank/WE-hunter
600pts, DC6, 4 Void Shields. 60cm 4 BP MW, 3x 60cm MW2+ TK(D3) Single Shot, 9 dice in firefight. That is probably comparable power with a Reaver Titan with similar loadout?


Still very sub par to a Cyclops! This cart can put out 3xD3 TK hits over the game. The Cyclops can do 4D6+4 at longer range. And costs 100 points less!


Finally with both these builds they will be taken apart in CC by anything dedicated, like terminators or other war engines. When fighting against any other 4+RA units, you need to have MW or TK in order to do anything.

Remember that as soon as something is in CC with the train, it can't use any of those FF buffs against it, nor do the void sheilds count.


We're aiming for a comparison with a Gargant. Take a moment to look it's rules

8DC with 4+RA and 4-6 powerfields is pretty tough. It has 8 CC or FF at 3+ which is far more than the Train's 6 at 5+CC or 4+FF.

With two sooperguns it has ranged at 60com 4BP MW, superior to the trains 60com 3BP MW, and then has a choice between a second TK(D3) attack either at 60cm or in close combat

That gargant is going to outshoot or outfight any of those Land Train builds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Let's talk War Engines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am
Posts: 113
Location: Washington State, USA.
Ok Elsaurio, I'm new to this addition of the game so I am not 100 % sure if this is underpowered or overpowered but here goes.

I have always been of the belief that the War Engines of the Squats were trying to mimic as best they could the Titans and Gargants of the other races. To this effect I have always believed that the Land Train is the Squat version of a Warlord Battle Titan. It couldn't quite survive as well as a Battle Titan could once all of its Void Shields went down but it had more than the Warlord if you took enough Battle Cars with it, thus sort of mimicking the Warlord survivability and in firepower.

So this is the land Train that I came up with:

Land Train: WE, move 15 cm, Armour 4+, CC 5+, FF 4+, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, One engine and 2-4 cars from Land Train. Damage capacity and Void Shields are cumulative. Critical: remove the rearmost car and apply one Blast Marker. The Land Train now counts as having a total starting damage capacity and void shields equal to the total DC and shields of the engine and the remaining cars. Note 1: Land Trains benefit from a 10 cm road movement bonus instead of the typical 5cm bonus. Note 2: Neither the Land Train Engine, nor any of its Battle Cars may benefit from the Spotter rule.

LAND TRAIN ENGINE: Doomsday Cannon - 90cm, 3 BP, MW, FFA. Battle Cannon - 75 cm AP4+/AT4+ FFA. Turret Battle Cannon - 75 cm AP4+/AT4+. Bolters - (15cm) Small Arms. DC 2, 2 Void Shields. 200 pts

MORTAR BATTLE CAR: Siege Mortar - 45 cm, 4 BP, IC, IND. Heavy Bolter - 30 cm, AP 5+ DC 1, 1 void shield. 100 pts

DRAGON BATTLE CAR: Inferno Cannon - 30 cm, AP3+, IC. Heavy Bolter - 30 cm, AP 5+ DC 1, 1 void shield. 50 pts

BERSERKER BATTLE CAR: Autocannon - 45 cm, AP 5+/AT 6+. Berserkers (15 cm) Small Arms, EA (+1) and (Base) Assult Wpns EA (+1). DC 1, 1 Void Shield. 50 pts

BOMB BATTLE CAR: Rad Bomb - unlimited, 10 BP, D, Ind, SS. DC 1, 1 void shield. May only take ONE Bomb Battlecar per Land Train. 75 pts


Anyway, what do you think?

_________________
Resident Squat Army Fanatic


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net