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Let's Talk 2: Artillery!

 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:55 am 
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Don't get me wrong, not saying ignore cover is bad. It's ace. Though I have noticed that steel legion tend to run manticores more often than bombards. That could be about play style as much as anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Here are some interesting Disrupt details.

After a quick run though of the approved NetEA lists I found 27 different Disrupt units/weapons.
Of that, only 7 were infantry based.
Of the 7 infantry based Disrupt units, only Noise Marines had a range greater than 15cm (30cm AP5+/AT6+).

There were no other Infantry based Disrupt barrage weapons in the approved lists.

I think this is a VERY important fact and one that I'm going to make sure we all understand.

Disrupt is a glorious ability. Once you couple that with barrage it gets even better. Add that to infantry based indirect fire that can hit an enemies deployment zone and you are starting to get silly good.

It really seems that a lot of Squat players want to directly port abilities from past editions into Epic Armageddon. There is a reason that it has taken years to get a balanced/fair/fun to play against Squat list. The Squats seemed to have everything and the kitchen sink available to them back then and it's not fun to play against and it is notoriously hard to balance.

Not every weapon has to have an additional ability.
For example, why can't mole mortars just have the same stats as Heavy Mortars? 30cm 1BP Indirect.
Sure it's not as sexy as disrupt/ignore cover but then this is a cheap small infantry formation that should not be as game impacting/powerful as it currently is.

I really think Squat players (and I have a Squat army waiting to be painted once the list is balanced) are going to have to accept some toning down of certain parts of the list if it's ever going to see approval.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:43 pm 
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Nice one onyx, I don't think anyone is asking for disrupt on goliaths, that would be way too powerful. On mole mortars I'm not against it. They're short ranged and as such very vulnerable to having their fp degraded or being assaulted (unlike say void spinners).

To be honest, they're definitely not a top draw option for squats and nor are goliaths.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:00 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
disrupt on goliaths,
Not sure where you got that from mate. Goliaths are not mentioned by me once.

Mole Mortars are not short ranged so let's forget that argument as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
For example, why can't mole mortars just have the same stats as Heavy Mortars? 30cm 1BP Indirect.

Hi Onyx, just want to clarify - wouldn't that make them just as powerful as now, but in a different way?
Either 3BP disrupt (current), or 3BP IC (your first proposal), or 6BP - which gives an extra template and BM. Or are you proposing to reduce the number of units in the formation to 3 to bring them back to a single template?

Of the options, I agree with Elsaurio that Disrupt would seem the most thematic with the ground erupting around the target formation. Maybe if they are considered overpowered they could be Mounted, to eliminate the saving throw if they are hiding in cover, which makes it riskier to push them further forward.

How have they performed in games where they have been taken? Do they actually punch above their weight? I was thinking that 175pts for a single template at 30cm (+indirect) seemed weak - but maybe that is not the case?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:58 pm 
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taiaha wrote:
Onyx wrote:
For example, why can't mole mortars just have the same stats as Heavy Mortars? 30cm 1BP Indirect.

Hi Onyx, just want to clarify - wouldn't that make them just as powerful as now, but in a different way?
Good catch!
Basically, they would be the same as they are now without Disrupt.
The point about Infantry based Disrupt is valid and very important.
Mole Mortars as they are now, don't just raise the bar... they smash the bar into pieces and stomp up and down on it.
Mole Mortars are not 30cm range...
They are 60cm (with Indirect). Once garrisoned this puts them in range of the opponents deployment zone. That is as good as the best artillery in the game whilst in cover and cheap. Any other approved army in the game has has to pay a lot more for the same ability.

Listen guys, I'm not trying to rain on the parade.
Every time I've faced Squats, it just felt like everything had special abilities (ie Disrupt, MW, TK, Indirect Fire, Void Shields and more in every list I faced) that in the hands of a good player will take apart an opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
taiaha wrote:
Onyx wrote:
For example, why can't mole mortars just have the same stats as Heavy Mortars? 30cm 1BP Indirect.

Hi Onyx, just want to clarify - wouldn't that make them just as powerful as now, but in a different way?
Good catch!
Basically, they would be the same as they are now without Disrupt.
The point about Infantry based Disrupt is valid and very important.
Mole Mortars as they are now, don't just raise the bar... they smash the bar into pieces and stomp up and down on it.
Mole Mortars are not 30cm range...
They are 60cm (with Indirect). Once garrisoned this puts them in range of the opponents deployment zone. That is as good as the best artillery in the game whilst in cover and cheap. Any other approved army in the game has has to pay a lot more for the same ability.

Listen guys, I'm not trying to rain on the parade.
Every time I've faced Squats, it just felt like everything had special abilities (ie Disrupt, MW, TK, Indirect Fire, Void Shields and more in every list I faced) that in the hands of a good player will take apart an opponent.

Point taken.. :)
I guess the counter argument would be that the Squats don't have much else that can reach into the enemy deployment zone if units are behind cover. No spacecraft, aircraft ground attack, air assault, teleport. Tunnelers dont arrive until Turn 3. Spotter/Indirect looks to be removed from the WEs.
That only leaves artillery - which I guess is a pretty similar situation to guard lists. The difference is that Goliaths are part of my 1/3 WE, so if I take more than one formation I can't fit another WE into my army.
I'm not saying that we should keep disrupt for Mole Mortars, just that Squats are a unique list that may have unique requirements.
Maybe if disrupt is too powerful, they could be 1/2 BP as you suggest, but 200pts for 8 units? That puts them in line with the cost/power of the Heavy Mortars which are 200pts and 4BP.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:04 am 
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Onyx wrote:
taiaha wrote:
Onyx wrote:
For example, why can't mole mortars just have the same stats as Heavy Mortars? 30cm 1BP Indirect.

Hi Onyx, just want to clarify - wouldn't that make them just as powerful as now, but in a different way?
Good catch!
Basically, they would be the same as they are now without Disrupt.
The point about Infantry based Disrupt is valid and very important.
Mole Mortars as they are now, don't just raise the bar... they smash the bar into pieces and stomp up and down on it.
Mole Mortars are not 30cm range...
They are 60cm (with Indirect). Once garrisoned this puts them in range of the opponents deployment zone. That is as good as the best artillery in the game whilst in cover and cheap. Any other approved army in the game has has to pay a lot more for the same ability.


I've been thinking about this thread ever since it started getting posted.

I my games I've never experienced Mole Mortars be anything other than minor annoyances that die quickly. (useful but far from OP). I've heard many a complaint about squat units (The cyclops, the Overlords, the Thunder Fires and the Goliaths sure get their fair cries of "Overpowered!") but none about the mole mortar.

But this is why we have these discussions, as different playstyles can throw up quite different unexpected units in different light.

My gut feel is still on the side that removing disrupt is necessary. Although it is a useful ability, the mole mortars don't get to fire very often before they get killed, especially if they are garrisoning right up the middle of the board as in Onxy's example.

I have to compare them to the Thudd guns. Both units hit AP on 3's and the Thudds are on average likely to give you 4 reliable hits each time, with an amazing 90cm range.

Mortars *might* be able to get four hits if the opponent bunches up that close and the disrupt ability only comes into play if they target's infantry has a substantial save, which say, against something like 4+ space marines translates into 2 extra blast markers.

If mortars got any weaker I might ditch them altogether for more Thudds. I'll tag this as a "something to look at" in my master list though.



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Listen guys, I'm not trying to rain on the parade.
Every time I've faced Squats, it just felt like everything had special abilities (ie Disrupt, MW, TK, Indirect Fire, Void Shields and more in every list I faced) that in the hands of a good player will take apart an opponent.


This is also important.

At the moment we are looking at each individual unit (or group of units) but we also have to re-take a look at the army as a whole when put together. Things that might be normal or balanced when looked at individually can become quite annoying to opponent when synergies are in play.

"When facing squats, it seems like everything breaks the rules" is a vary fair comment. I know that personally I feel the same way when facing off against other 'weird' races (necrons and eldar, I'm looking at you).

Is there too much zany in the Squat list? Pretty much everything that Steel Legion does is also in the squat list, plus Tunneler, Spotter and Support Craft.

I'm going to start a discussion about this topic near the end of this "Let's talk' phase precisely to discuss this point that Onxy has raised. At that point we might have to go through and weed out some of the excessive special rules.

Ideas and feedback about that?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:09 am 
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Very interesting discussion, thanks Elsaurio for starting this off.

Goliath and Thudd Guns have never been a problem for me. Although I always hate facing Thudd Guns and would possiby look to down grade them slightly with range 30cm ID.

In all my games I have never considered taking Mole Mortars so would definitely like to hear more about how other play them/face them.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:47 am 
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Just a couple of counter points. For me mole mortars are a sub optimal choice, their firepower degrades really quickly and they're too easily assaulted off the board. Yes you might get a turns shooting into your opponents deployment zone but they can easily avoid this at deployment. A far better garrison option are the overpowered Robots (AV, walker, good close assault, no bms from shooting, 4+ armour, and enough firepower to shred other scouts/Garrisons) . Goliaths are fine.

The other thing to remember with squat artillery as we're talking about synergy is no spaceship and no aircraft which is a huge disadvantage (you can't do the old break and strafe).

I do agree with the point that squats have a lot of random rules but that's best addressed by dealing with stubborn, spotter and their own version of automaton than changing weapon load outs which all use core rules. In terms of everything breaks the rules, most armies have distinctive rules (marines, eldar, necrons, tau, orks, nids etc etc) it's about making them clear and understandable rather than having or not having.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Goliaths and Mole Mortars are fantastic infantry formation killers.
One breaks the formation the other wipes it out.
When you face it/use it yourself, you will understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:58 pm 
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I have used and faced them both. Agree they're amazing on turn one but they're so easy to destroy degrade, or cripple I tend not to take them.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:32 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
Goliaths and Mole Mortars are fantastic infantry formation killers.
One breaks the formation the other wipes it out.
When you face it/use it yourself, you will understand.


I think you want to be careful grouping these together. Goliaths are awesome artillery which are hard to nail down much like gaurd equivalents but with squats having no planes/teleport/space ship I'm o with that.

Mole mortars as you say can be deadly and I'm not keen on people's suggestions of a 4bp option unless it was pointed very clearly.

At 3bp I don't think they are a if issue even with Overwatch/garrison. Especially considering their awful ff value and that they must be close to the enmy to do anything. Best case scenario you fire your template, do damage to something that franky should have been spread out in anticipation and then you probably end up dead because you are all alone in front of the enemy army...

Worst case scenario opponent recognises how easy it is to suppress part of the unit reducing you to bp2 which sucks much more and limits your effectiveness. You then get a crappy barrage and get wiped out.

Bear in mind this is from the perspective of someone who has played against squats but never with them. As an opponent the things I complain about aren't mole mortars!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 2: Artillery!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:37 pm 
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What are they then? Just curious.

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