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Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!

 Post subject: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:10 am 
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Let's talk: Squat Bikers!


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Analysis:

When Squats were first developed for 40k the range was rather limted. They had a few infantry types, a exo-armour or two and some heavy weapons. What they did have in abundance is bikes and trikes. Not for no reason are the Squats described as "Half Pint Hells Angels in Space" on this very forum.

It is also refreshing to come across a unit in the Squat list that is both A) Useful in their role and B) Fairly uncontroversial for their inclusion. The biker formation is a popular, effective choice and not too dissimilar to other race's bikes.


Space Marine Comparision:
As expected, the Space Marines are better than the Squat version, with +1 to every stat. The Squat bikes are still pretty respectable in engagements and useful for moving around at 30cm capturing and contesting objectives.

Issues:
If there was one thing that was universally called for in the feedback on the 1.50 list it was to increase the movement characteristic of all the Squat bike units to 35cm. Who am i to deny the fans what they want? This is less of a change I want to see because of rules balance, but more because it is just so maddening to see the one race that is defined most by their love of bikes have slower bikes than all other races.


Likelyhood of any changes
+5cm movement? All agreed?

Fun Fact
In the original 80's 40K squat models, the bikes were very much like the current Epic setups - 7 models of bikes with possible trike additions. The one missing upgrade is that the bikes used to get Living Ancestors. He was an ancient squat that got his own sidecar to ride around in. No shit. Check out the picture:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:18 am 
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Let's talk: Squat Trikes!

Image

Analysis:

The 'Attack Bike' version of the squat bikers lot. Reduced CC value but picks up the standard 15cm Multimelta. The squats don't get many MW outside of the DoomsDay cannon, so this might be useful. Probably not as pure shooting, but as a Fire Fight Engagement it's great.

As a Light Vehicle, it provides some cover for the Guildmaster if you take one.

Space Marine Comparision:
Actually better than the SM Attack bike as it includes the MW attack. All other stats are worse.

Issues:
Again, the increase to 35cm is likely here.

Likelyhood of any changes
+5cm movement? All agreed?

Fun Fact
In the Rogue Trader rules it could swap out the Multi Melta for other heavy weapons, including Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, even some of the weirder weapons like Conversion beamers and D-cannons. Back when all races had access to the same weapons. It could also be armoured with an Ork Power Field.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:33 am 
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Let's talk: Squat Guildmaster!

Image

Analysis:

The 'Hearthguard' version of the squat bikers lot. A little bit different than a Hearthguard unit as it picks up First Strike and Invulnerable Save.

It has a tiny bit more of a CC punch even though it is strangely only 5+ CC. It is a bit tougher with a $+ save and the Invulnerable Save, as I guess it attempting to model a Exo-Armoured Squat on a bike.

Space Marine Comparision:
Pretty much a SM Commander on bike with First Strike instead of MW

Issues:
Again, the increase to 35cm is likely here.

Although strangely it has the Mounted ability despite it being a Light Vehicle. I am guessing that is a typo from when it used to be a Infantry model? Should I delete the mounted ability (leaving it needing to hide in Trikes) or change it to INF (leaving it to hide in bikes)?

Likelyhood of any changes
+5cm movement? All agreed?

Fun Fact
It may seem strange that Exo Armour equipped dudes could also ride bikes, but in Rogue Trader days even a Space Marine Terminator could ride a bike. There were....issues... with the rules sometimes.

Image
I'm not sure if this a conversion or a legit model.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:55 am 
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Looks ok to me.

One thing though Elsaurio, I have a big pile of squats lying around unassembled and something that has put me off assembling them is that I'm not sure what formation sizes are likely to be as the list is still experimental. Some stability about this issue would be nice to know if possible? Do you think they formation sizes will stay the same as they are now, are they likely to change?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:57 am 
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Hey Elsaurio, 100% behind upping the movement by 5cm acrid the board.
Great work

- Kendal


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:59 am 
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Yes, happy with this. Rug has some ideas on maxing out on Bikes so I would be interested to hear his thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Aside from the 30cm move, I think the Squat Bikes are spot-on stat-wise when comparing them to Ork or Marine bikes. 35cm move makes sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:25 pm 
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i have earlier questioned why the formation rules put a cap on the number of trikes.
Why not allow us to make a formation with all trikes?

But maybe this is coupled to the fact that I think the force organization is too strict as is. Why would squats copy the IG. They have their own style and I would think they have a more conscripts or eldar guardian style armies than a standing IG type army (or even Orks, yes Orks, read my "sqork" post from about a year ago for details on my crazy idea for squats). My theory is that this comes from not having a E40k list to take ideas from, so the only official lists to basebthe squats on are SM:TL era force org. which didn't have that much freedom.

On the +5 movement, who doesn't agee :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:48 pm 
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That's a good point, I didn't think to address formation size.

Given their OOP nature, what's on the sprue, as well as the various basing options over the years I think we need something a bit more flexible:

Bikers Guild
Any five of the following units: Guild Bikers, Guild Trike

- Add any number of Guild Bikers or Guild Trikes for +25 points each
- Add up to one Guildmaster for +25 points

150 points

Base 5, as the sprues were sold in sets of 5 or 10 in the past.

Also, the Guildmaster doesn't need Mounted, he's already a LV.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Aside from Orks/Nids, Epic Armageddon prescribes formation size as a balancing mechanism.
This should be kept in mind.
Maybe the IG copied the Squats... :D

Bikes/Trikes look good to me and the +5cm is a no brainer change.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:03 am 
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Onyx wrote:
Aside from Orks/Nids, Epic Armageddon prescribes formation size as a balancing mechanism.
This should be kept in mind.
Maybe the IG copied the Squats... :D

Bikes/Trikes look good to me and the +5cm is a no brainer change.



I agree with Onyx*: the current bike formation is a nicely useful size and a balanced formation. I won't go messing with the make up. Plus I think what you get in the box is just enough models to make 3 bikes, 1 Guildmaster, 3 trikes.

There has a been a lot of calls over the years for a Sub-list just about fast moving bikers. This would be the place to have a flexible biker squad. Anyone care to make one up?



*no really, sometimes I do


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:23 am 
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I'd like to see the possibility of an all trike unit, rather than having to always mix trikes and bikes. More useful in a game to have 1 formation of just bikers and one formation of just trikes, than two formations that are half and half. It's not like we haven't had fast units of 15cm 5+ MW before. (sM landspeeders)


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:36 am 
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Markconz wrote:
Looks ok to me.

One thing though Elsaurio, I have a big pile of squats lying around unassembled and something that has put me off assembling them is that I'm not sure what formation sizes are likely to be as the list is still experimental. Some stability about this issue would be nice to know if possible? Do you think they formation sizes will stay the same as they are now, are they likely to change?


That's a very good question!

Let me rest your worries with the statement that we began this project with the caveat:

* Minimal changes where possible
* That no existing players would have their collections invalidated.

After all it's all about the tradition!

This is partially as the 1.5 list has been so extensively playtested that it is close to approval*, and that we are constrained by the existing models to a degree.


That being said, we are toying with the idea that the list may be made a little more flexible in the infantry department. For example, what would happen if the Berzerker formation was allowed to take 0-3 Robots as an upgrade? Or Warriors start at 6 bases and then you add up to 10 more for 25 points each?

You would, in all cases, be allowed to take your existing formations as much as possible. So get assembling!

I might have to post a more complete post about this as its own topic.


*Well maybe not 'close to approval' but any major changes would set it back and require even more playtesting!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Aye to 5cm other than that don't change. I definitely wouldn't go below 225pts or you run a real risk of people taking 20 activation spam armies of bikes, bezerkers and thunderfires. Likewise more than 3 macros per unit would definitely need a price bump.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 3: Bikes and Trikes!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:39 pm 
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I agree on the +5 movement. They are better than 8 ork war bikes so 225pts is about right.
One of my favourite units, no change needed. ;)

Living the old squat artwork BTw ;)

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