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Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes

 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:05 am 
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Steel legion are about 17 per unit (100 for 6) squats are better (CC and armour) so say 18
A character with inspiring, leader plus weapon boost is about +50 to unit cost (see dark eldar or marines)
So 18 x 8 units + 40 (rhinos) + 50 (character) is 234

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:47 am 
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ffoley wrote:
Steel legion are about 17 per unit (100 for 6) squats are better (CC and armour) so say 18
A character with inspiring, leader plus weapon boost is about +50 to unit cost (see dark eldar or marines)
So 18 x 8 units + 40 (rhinos) + 50 (character) is 234


If you base the cost on a steel legion infantry co so you don't have to adjust for chimeras Steel Legion infantry are roughly 14.6 pts per model (assuming commander + likelihood of commisar is worth is 75). So Bezerkers are reasonable at 200 points for 8 man unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:46 am 
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Re Spamming:

There wasn't really a problem with 'spamming' berzerkers as such. The issue was with taking 3 minimum sized berzerker units so you could take the maximum 9 support slots.

Making thunderfires an attached unit has hopefully 'solved' that problem by forcing Squats to buy warriors or thunderers to get AA, so I am not really worried about having too many berzerkers on the board.

That being said it seems we are narrowing in on the 'correct' price. Either
6 'zerkers for 175pts; or
8 'zerkers for 200pts.

Is everyone still happy with 6 warriors at 200?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am 
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Cool.

On warriors, I think 6 for 200 is a bit too pricey. You're actually going up in price to somewhere around 24 points a stand which is a full 10 points more than guard infantry.

I'd be tempted to match them with Bezerkers so either 200 for 8 or 250 for 10.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:09 am 
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If you go 250 for 10 aren't you going to have an activation nightmare without cheaper support units?
Berzerkers are as good as warriors
I'm not convinced 8 for 200 for either. There is some great synergies in the list for such units, protecting WE from assaults. At 200pts you can afford to lose them. Guard just get big expensive blocks which you can't afford to lose (but will do just as easily from e.g. clipping assaults).

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:30 am 
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Epic UK runs bezerkers at 200 and warriors at 250. They work fine. With small units yes you can gain activations but they die sooooo easily (which is fair, your're trading activations for resilience). My concern with 6 warriors for 200 points is that they're too fragile for the points - 24 points for a stand or warriors is, for me, way too much.

Also, if you want to go with the guard comparison, they actually get cheap disposable scouts to shield key units - squats don't have that.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:16 pm 
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8 x warriors for 200 and 6 x berzerkers for 175
You could make

Warriors (8)/thunderers (6) +2xTF + SC 400pts
Warriors (8)/thunderers (6) +2xTF 300
Berzerkers (6) 175
Berzerkers or something else 175
Bikes 225
Gyros 250
Something else 250
Something else 250
Big WE 500
Big WE 475
Total 3000


10 activations and up to 2 more if you replace the big WEs with smaller formations
If the WE were to go up in price and there isn't anything available for 150pts then 10 activations and sufficient AA may be impossible

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:32 am 
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Elsaurio wrote:
Re Spamming:

There wasn't really a problem with 'spamming' berzerkers as such. The issue was with taking 3 minimum sized berzerker units so you could take the maximum 9 support slots.

Making thunderfires an attached unit has hopefully 'solved' that problem by forcing Squats to buy warriors or thunderers to get AA, so I am not really worried about having too many berzerkers on the board.

That being said it seems we are narrowing in on the 'correct' price. Either
6 'zerkers for 175pts; or
8 'zerkers for 200pts.

Is everyone still happy with 6 warriors at 200?

If you dont think the 175pt Bezerkers re-introduces the spam problem, then maybe that is a good choice to give us a slightly cheaper chaff formation. You could even copy the 1.5 list with 2 extra bezerkers for 25pts and then we can chose for ourselves which formation we want... ;D


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:08 pm 
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The first time I read through your proposed infantry list I completely missed that you have Leviathan listed at +175 points. Is it the same price if it's attached to a formation, or independent?
If independent, does it come out of the WE 1/3 points?
Is that still using the stats in the experimental WE rules? If so, might have to dust mine off. (and pick up some more)
I can almost see a line of Leviathans trundling across the board - similar to a Feral Ork horde (but with beards).

Can you explain how the fighting deck on the Leviathan works?
1) Can my units on the fighting deck take casualties - either from enemy shooting or assault?
1a) If yes, does the Leviathan provide any additional protection beyond -1 to-hit modifier?
2) If they are an independent formation, does a formation on the fighting deck take a BM for coming under fire?
3) If i have 9 warrior units can i get 5 Autocannon shots(all the warriors with AC ar on the deck), or 3 (6 warriors on deck = 3 shots)
4) Any restrictions to what units can be on the fighting deck? Trikes? Thunderfires? Mole mortars? :D

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:37 am 
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Better buy up some Leviathans before everyone wants one!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:51 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
Better buy up some Leviathans before everyone wants one!

Ha, if I'd been smart I would have bought enough before i posted... :D
Maybe the UK guys will sell us theirs cheap since they are 350pts in the E:UK list and no one uses them.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:35 pm 
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well 2 out of the 5 squat lists used in UK tournaments so far had a leviathan - so I wouldn't say no one

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:44 pm 
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175pts is way to good for a Leviathan.
At 350pts there very solid, possibly not as good pt for pt as a Cyclops/Collossus but certainly not overpriced compared to WEs in other lists.

I've played with and against Squats a fair bit over the last year and agree Epic UK pretty much got the pts right for bezerkers/warriors. If we could base the pts values around those whilst adding more flexibility in the NetEpic list that'd be perfect.

6 or 8 for 175/200 for Bezerkers sounds about right.
I'd go 225/250 for 8-10 warriors.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:04 am 
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Wow I didn't spot that myself. Yeah at 175 the leviathan is nuts assuming it's the same stats as in the Cadians list. If the goal is to give it a discount because it's attached you could maybe justify 300. It's 350 as part of the core unit in Cadians.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:15 am 
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Panic buying of Leviathans to commence in 3...2...1...

Has anyone got any Leviathans spare, going cheap? :D


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