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Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes

 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:07 am 
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Engmir wrote:
I much rather see a 10 strong unit of warriors sans rhinos for 250 to hold my line.

Six strong units is just meh. Core units of basic infantry are usually larger, squats are more akin to guardsmen than space marines. In fact I wouldnś mind if warriors were even statted the same as guardsmen and do 10 for 200 pts. (all prices incl hearthguard)

The existence of clipping is not an argument. Position better.


The current proposed list has 6 man for 200, with the option to get 4 more for 275 total, which gets you pretty much what you want. Includes Rhinos.

I currently run 10 in the 1.5 list and they never do much at all. Easily shot apart for very little effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:29 pm 
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Almost, but not quite.

Why the compulsory (which you also pay for) transports?
In my mind, and mind you this is an opinion, Squats roar around on bikes, ride in their land trains and leviathans and otherwise just hold ground with infantry, grumbling in their foxholes.

Now they are more mobile than a lot of forces. How did this happen?

I like having lots of footsoldiers to garrison somewhere. Also when holding buildings rhinos are a hindrance as the enemy just gets to shoot AT at the rhinos derping outside.
(I admit that my experience with LaTD probably influences my playing style and ambivalence towards transports)

TL;DR
- Fluffwise & so many transports doesn't feel right (Played em in Epic Space Marine)
- Flexibility in setup and ability to hold positions

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:36 am 
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I see the point you are making and it is reasonable.

I offer a counterpoint - if you want a good garrisoning infantry unit, try taking termite-laden infantry. You can pop up where you like, and come with a amazing 4+ cover save.


As for including Rhinos, they have been in this list since the start. I too collected Squats since 2nd Edition days and they did have Rhinos there.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:45 pm 
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On the fluff front. I'm pretty sure that originally squats invented rhinos as they were true engineers. This was before all the stc stuff came in.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:42 am 
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I've argued before that squats should lose rhinos altogether. I would have loved some nice industrial vehicles. The recently released genestealer cult goliath is in my mind a perfect fit for squats (even the rockgrinder in front is thematic, give them 5+ CC and 0 FF, and suddenly squats have an interesting CC unit).
Rhinos made sense when squats were abhumans in the Imperial Guard. But as a stand alone race it makes no sense.
I know this is unlikely to happen, I just wanted to voice my opponion.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Shoel wrote:
I've argued before that squats should lose rhinos altogether. I would have loved some nice industrial vehicles. The recently released genestealer cult goliath is in my mind a perfect fit for squats (even the rockgrinder in front is thematic, give them 5+ CC and 0 FF, and suddenly squats have an interesting CC unit).
Rhinos made sense when squats were abhumans in the Imperial Guard. But as a stand alone race it makes no sense.
I know this is unlikely to happen, I just wanted to voice my opponion.



In previous iterations of the Squat list, they had Rhino-like APC's with their own name, but it didn't seem to stick. An issue would be sourcing the models and forcing all the existing players to change over.

In a perfect world, if Squats were ever to get re-released they would totally get their own cool APC, and the rockgrinder thing would be perfect.

As a point of fluff, Squats were never 'abhumans in the Imperial Guard'. There were always originally humans who had settles the galactic core and evolved in high gravity after being cut off from the imperium for thousands of years. They were always their own stand alone race, but had access to Imperial equipment like lasguns and Rhinos (as they had the original STC blueprints from Earth).


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
Shoel wrote:
I've argued before that squats should lose rhinos altogether. I would have loved some nice industrial vehicles. The recently released genestealer cult goliath is in my mind a perfect fit for squats (even the rockgrinder in front is thematic, give them 5+ CC and 0 FF, and suddenly squats have an interesting CC unit).
Rhinos made sense when squats were abhumans in the Imperial Guard. But as a stand alone race it makes no sense.
I know this is unlikely to happen, I just wanted to voice my opponion.



In previous iterations of the Squat list, they had Rhino-like APC's with their own name, but it didn't seem to stick. An issue would be sourcing the models and forcing all the existing players to change over.


I would argue that sourcing new models isn't needed. A rhino would make for a counts-as model just as easily as any other. Getting agreement from us the grumpy unwashed masses about a fan-made unit, which let's be serious, would be a rhino by another name likely in all effects is another matter! ;D However it might be an interesting thought exercise to make a [squat homeworld rhino] with a slightly different theme to to see how it fits.

Elsaurio wrote:
In a perfect world, if Squats were ever to get re-released they would totally get their own cool APC, and the rockgrinder thing would be perfect.

So this^^^^

Elsaurio wrote:
As a point of fluff, Squats were never 'abhumans in the Imperial Guard'. There were always originally humans who had settles the galactic core and evolved in high gravity after being cut off from the imperium for thousands of years. They were always their own stand alone race, but had access to Imperial equipment like lasguns and Rhinos (as they had the original STC blueprints from Earth).

Yes and no. They were a quasi independent realm within the greater imperium and were found in great numbers in both the Imperial Army/Guard and as independent armies. More akin to the autonomy of the AdMech than your average imperial world. All that is neither here nor there for the list though. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:11 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:

I would argue that sourcing new models isn't needed. A rhino would make for a counts-as model just as easily as any other. Getting agreement from us the grumpy unwashed masses about a fan-made unit, which let's be serious, would be a rhino by another name likely in all effects is another matter! ;D However it might be an interesting thought exercise to make a [squat homeworld rhino] with a slightly different theme to to see how it fits.



I think if you scroll back to version 1.2 or something you find that they were originally calling them Spartan APC's.

Not sure when it was changed back to Rhinos.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:20 pm 
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probably when FW released the new envisioned Spartan Assault tank I would suspect. However were they anything in 1.2 other than Rhinos by another name? That's rather the problem with EA and compounded by D6 based mechanics that it's sometimes hard to make something distinct in gameplay (or to give an external example: there's a reason the Hellhammer doesn't exist in EA lists)

anyhoos this is an interesting series of threads. thanks for doing them

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:31 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:

anyhoos this is an interesting series of threads. thanks for doing them


Cheers. It's Overlords/Gyrocopters and the spotter rule next. I expect that to be a 'lively' discussion


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:34 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
I expect that to be a 'lively' discussion


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:51 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Yes and no. They were a quasi independent realm within the greater imperium and were found in great numbers in both the Imperial Army/Guard and as independent armies. More akin to the autonomy of the AdMech than your average imperial world. All that is neither here nor there for the list though. :D


Though originally some did indeed get subsumed into the Imperium the majority of holds/planets maintained independence and traded with the Imperium (and some even traded with Orks and Eldar for that matter). More independent than Ratlings/AdMech, less than Eldar/etc.

Anyway, all that aside - I've got a crapton of Rhinos for my list now. I will not support proxy use for them (I got Rhinos because there are Rhinos, not because they are good proxies) and won't accept a list that removes them for kicks. They used Rhinos in SM/SM2, there's no practical or characterful reason (outside of subjective opinion) for they should /not/ use them now.

jimmyzimms wrote:
Getting agreement from us the grumpy unwashed masses about a fan-made unit, which let's be serious, would be a rhino by another name likely in all effects is another matter!


Gasp! You were right!


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
They used Rhinos in SM/SM2, there's no practical or characterful reason (outside of subjective opinion) for they should /not/ use them now.


I assume you use the same argument for IG for why they should not use Chimeras as transport?
Rhino and Land Raider were the only transports for a very long time. And the only reason that argument works for Squats at all is that there were no releases between SM and now. Most armies had an update in E40K before EA. Since Squats didn't, we have huge gaps in the range, and I would argue that APC is such a gap. Had squats survived I'm certain they would have had an APC of their own.

But as i stated earlier I'm well aware that there's a snowballs chance in hell something like this would make it into the list. Just food for thought.


Last edited by Shoel on Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:41 pm 
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I would ask you to correct your quote above. I didn't state that.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Talk 5: Core Infantry Changes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:46 pm 
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Shoel wrote:
And the only reason that argument works for Squats at all is that there were no releases between SM and now. Most armies had an update in E40K before EA. Since Squats didn't, we have huge gaps in the range, and I would argue that APC is such a gap. Had squats survived I'm certain they would have had an APC of their own.


Boy I'm glad you can see the threads of alternate realities and apply them to our own with such belief. Maybe the new transport would've been the chimera. Ooh, or maybe it was going to be a super-heavy grav Thunderhawk and they definitely would be armed with quad volcano cannon and doomsday batteries.

I want my squats to have SM landers and Thunderhawks for super exo-armour air assault with 4xMW 2+ 75cm cannon. That's totally reasonable and pretty much in line with GW's previous vision for the range.


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