Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File

 Post subject: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 2:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

To make it easier to find the file I am compiling the comparison of Gold versus ongoing formula costs attached.

Primarch


Attachments:
Cost comparisons list updated 4-16-16.pdf [166.07 KiB]
Downloaded 196 times

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

File updated.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:39 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Majorca, Spain
the values for the thunderbolt squadron in the Adeptus mechanicus data sheet are wrong.

I think that it was already mentioned in the FB group but there is a big difference among the different titan hull costs for each of the armies.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Silagast wrote:
the values for the thunderbolt squadron in the Adeptus mechanicus data sheet are wrong.

I think that it was already mentioned in the FB group but there is a big difference among the different titan hull costs for each of the armies.


Hi!

Thanks I'll look into that. :)

As for the Hulls according to Magnus it has to do with the difference in the command structure and the pricing. Once the newer calculations for hit location templates are done we'll see how that effects the final cost for them.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
Actually, there is only a small difference, and easily explained. For the Titans.

Most of the listed costs are for Special Formations, which receive a 20% discount from their base price. The higher values at the end of the Adeptus Mechanicus listing is because the values at the end are Support Formations, which do not receive a discount.

Primarch, you need some additional formatting at the end of the Adeptus Mechanicus list, as the Adeptus Mechanicus Support Formations end with the Stormblade. The Imperator, Reaver Group, and Warlord group are all Company formations for the Titan Legions Codex list, and the rest of the Titan entries are Support formations for the Titan Legions list. Please fix this as it is causing confusion.

The reason that the Imperial Guard Titan Special formations are slightly lower in cost that their Marine counterparts is because they are subject to the Imperial Guard Chain-of-Command rules. I have found nothing in the rules for Chain-of-Command that says that Titans are exempt from them. Oddly, Praetorians should be, as they are all Command models, but I seem to have applied that discount to most of them as well. I'll have to fix that.

Primarch, you seem to have reversed the Gold and Formula values for the Thunderbolt formation. Good catch Silagast.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Not so much a question for Magnus so much as it is for Primarch: why do the IG have access to Titans? I'm pretty sure they didn't have Titans in standard 2nd edition.

It seems absurd that Titans would be subject to the Chain of Command rule, think we should get rid of that for NE6.

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:59 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
Not so much a question for Magnus so much as it is for Primarch: why do the IG have access to Titans? I'm pretty sure they didn't have Titans in standard 2nd edition.

It seems absurd that Titans would be subject to the Chain of Command rule, think we should get rid of that for NE6.


Hi!

Titans were a special card under the original rules for both SM and IG. Whether or not it was subject to the IG command rules was open to interpretation (and debate), since it wasn't "specifically" excluded.

Of course once you get into "battlegroups" (as officially done under Titan Legions), then its even more of a problem, since those titans in a battlegroup DID have a unit coherency/chain of command. Whether that extended outside that particular group could be debated, one of the many consequences of adding rules without looking out for unintended consequences.

Needless to say, things got messy. I would agree titans need to be strictly defined as "support" and its "own arm" of any force not subject to these kind of things, except if titan groups are deemed to have them in the first place. In other words titans are only really "allies" in any force except perhaps in a mechanicum force.

Now that is one army list with lots of room to improve. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
Actually, no. We've had this discussion and determined that the Adeptus Mechanicus forces (and by extension, the Titan Legions) do not worry about the Guard Chain-of-Command rules as such are not mentioned in their book. That said, yes the three Titans in a specific Battlegroup do have a 25cm coherency they have to maintain, but there is no CoC for them.

Ooh, 2nd edition. Right, I can look it up there and see how it was done then. Good idea.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
I just looked through the 2nd edition books relevant to this issue (Armies of the Imperium and Titan Legions - Codex Titanicus). Back then, what Gold calls Adeptus Mechanicus was divided into three groups: Titan Legions, Knight Households, and Tech-Guard. The Tech-Guard were a sub-set of the standard Guard list and were subject to the CoC rules, but the other two groups were not.

I also checked the relevant cards. All of the Tech-Guard cards specifically stated that their forces had to be within 25cm of a Command model to receive orders EXCEPT for the Titan support cards. Those do not. Similarly, the Titan Special cards from both SM2 and TL lack any wording about requiring being within any radius.

Thus there is precedent saying that Titans should be exempt from the CoC rules. If that is what people would prefer, then I can modify their costs appropriately.

Though if we are reverting back to those rules, we should probably revert the Adeptus Mechanicus Standard list to using the Chain-of-Command rules as well. They are basically just Guard that happen to come from Forge Worlds. This would require even more changes though, so perhaps it is best to not and just say that their flavor is different now.

Back in SM2 the Imperial Titans were considered as generic Imperial cards (Special only) and available to either Imperial army (Guard and Marines) as needed. TL expanded that slightly by adding the Titan Legions army which had Company and Support cards for Titans, but they were still available as Special to both Marines and Guard in that ruleset as well. Thus why they are on the Gold Imperial Guard list - because they have always been available to Guard armies.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I had forgotten that the Titan cards were ones that could be used by the IG, probably because I always wanted to get expensive Superheavies into my IG force. I don't think it is a good idea to go back to 2nd edition, think what you've been doing is great Magnus. Frankly I am the worst person to make suggestions about armies and fluff but then you already know that! ;)

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just looked through the 2nd edition books relevant to this issue (Armies of the Imperium and Titan Legions - Codex Titanicus). Back then, what Gold calls Adeptus Mechanicus was divided into three groups: Titan Legions, Knight Households, and Tech-Guard. The Tech-Guard were a sub-set of the standard Guard list and were subject to the CoC rules, but the other two groups were not.

I also checked the relevant cards. All of the Tech-Guard cards specifically stated that their forces had to be within 25cm of a Command model to receive orders EXCEPT for the Titan support cards. Those do not. Similarly, the Titan Special cards from both SM2 and TL lack any wording about requiring being within any radius.

Thus there is precedent saying that Titans should be exempt from the CoC rules. If that is what people would prefer, then I can modify their costs appropriately.

Though if we are reverting back to those rules, we should probably revert the Adeptus Mechanicus Standard list to using the Chain-of-Command rules as well. They are basically just Guard that happen to come from Forge Worlds. This would require even more changes though, so perhaps it is best to not and just say that their flavor is different now.

Back in SM2 the Imperial Titans were considered as generic Imperial cards (Special only) and available to either Imperial army (Guard and Marines) as needed. TL expanded that slightly by adding the Titan Legions army which had Company and Support cards for Titans, but they were still available as Special to both Marines and Guard in that ruleset as well. Thus why they are on the Gold Imperial Guard list - because they have always been available to Guard armies.


Hi!

Great research! ;D

I think the "reigning" wisdom is to have titans "outside" (exempt) from the CoC of IG or any similar organization. I would cost them on the basis of that.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

The file has been updated and now includes all the basic army lists. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:46 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: France
Thanks Peter for the upload :)

I'm quite sorry to say this but I think there's something wrong with the formula used to compute the points:

- Capitol Imperialis with volcano: 1086
- Heavy Infantry Company: 310
- Heavy Infantry Platoon: 150

So if I face 3 Heavy Inf Comps + 1 Heavy Infantry Platoon Vs 1 Capitol the formula says it's "balanced" (310*3+150 = 1080 vs 1086). That's 1 mini vs 17*3+5 = 56 (not counting the commissars)

Now, you place the minis on the battle field at 80cm from each others, considering the Capitol start first and move 10cm to be sure all its weapons can fire at the Infantry and cause 3 hits (hit with the volcano + 2 plasma guns hits).

Infantry player loses 3 stands, and 53 are remaining. They all fire at the capitol imperialis:
- 53 (stands)*2(attack dices)*2/6(probality to do a 5+ roll) = 35 hits
- shields absorb 6 hits remaining 29 hits.
- focalising on the bridge on only keeping the hits that do not deviate to keep the maths easier, 29*16/36 won't deviate = 16 hits really hit the bridge.
- with a 1+ bridge armor save, about 3 hits with cause damage table rolls on the bridge
- Unless infantry player rolls only very bad dices despite the +1 to critical roll for further damages, the bridge will suffer a critical damage and the capitol is dead

So in a single turn, the infantry player has won...

You can also do the same with 3 assault companies, let them charge at the capitol during 3 turns (considering they need 3 turns to reach the capitol), they will lose about 10 stands (3 per turn from capitol base weapons and 1 extra from the point defense when reaching at it), leaving the capitol engages by about 12 stands (it will be hard to place more troops around): with 2D6 + 12, Capitol should win close combat againt 4 or 5 stands, that's 7 stands that will win close combat and 7 rolls on damage table...Capitol is dead

And off course, that does take in account that the capitol will only be able to capture 1 objective while infantry player can capture all others.

Unless you heavily modify the NetEpic Rules, costs given by the cost formula will totally change the armies and the way to play them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
First off, your argument is invalid on one important technical point. It is impossible to field a Capitol Imperialis as an entire army as it is a Special Formation and not a Company.

That aside, any player who selected a Volcano bearing CI to oppose an Infantry based army deserves a defeat. This is true regardless of rules system or points system. The CI is not intended to be an "army-smasher" model. It never has been. Of course it lost, as you were using it in a way that is outside of it's intended use parameters. Setting up a scenario that can only have one outcome, pretending to be surprised at that outcome, and saying the formula is broken as a result of that outcome is bad form.

Just because the points totals are equivalent does not mean that the forces are evenly balanced. It never has. This is not a problem with the points formula, this is a fact of the game. This is why players have to be more careful of how they build their army.

Yes, the values generated by the formula may change the way that some players build their armies. This IS intentional, and hopefully players may try out models and formations that they have not used before as they now *might* be costed more appropriately for their power level.

Unless the objectives were all placed in one blob, which should not happen, your point about those is incorrect as well. First you say that all of the infantry stands are shooting, then you say that they are also capturing objectives? Sorry, on any game-realistic battlefield, they could not do both.

Again, saying that the formula is broken just because of one impossible example like this is improper. I have always said that the formula is not perfect. There is certainly room for improvement. Please, instead of offering up impossible scenarios like the one above, look at things that can actually happen, play a few actual tabletop games with the formula values, and give feedback about what seems over/under priced and why.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 6:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1618
Location: France
Edit by myself, not a constructive reply.


Last edited by scream on Wed May 20, 2015 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net