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NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File

 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:54 pm 
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Hi!

Comparison file updated for v0.41 available.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:20 pm 
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Hi!

Update comparison file uploaded. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:03 am 
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2019 points for Tzeentch Magnus and 1056 for a Doom Wing? Is this correct? I have a hard time believing Magnus is worth two titans. Also, where is this Facebook group I keep hearing about and is there a master document with the calculation? I'm not finding either but I suspect I'm somehow being dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:59 pm 
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jcoplin wrote:
2019 points for Tzeentch Magnus and 1056 for a Doom Wing? Is this correct? I have a hard time believing Magnus is worth two titans. Also, where is this Facebook group I keep hearing about and is there a master document with the calculation? I'm not finding either but I suspect I'm somehow being dumb.

James


The facebook group is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/SMEPIC40K/

The master points calculation thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=146&t=28869

Individual army list points calculations are here: viewforum.php?f=173

Look for threads starting with "Points value formula for..."

As for Magnus, I won't rehash the discussions on that, but yes he's worth somewhere north of 1500 points. Why? Because in mock battle with the other 3 greater demons/primarch, he can consistently beat all the other three taken on at the same time. Since the old values for them was 500, that is 1500 right there if Magnus can defeat all three.

Bottom line, Magnus is SEVERELY underpriced for what he can do. After 25 years of games and using him, barring player inexperience or mistakes, he's basically immortal (chaos cards) and packs on of the most lethal ranged weapons in the game (eye of magnus).

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:34 am 
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Wow. That's nuts. Any plans to nurf it on the platinum revision if that happens? If those points are true and I believe you when they say they reflect reality, that's a serious game issue that's no fun for anyone.

Are the Doomwings similarly OP? That kind of points suggests they also should get nurfed. I don't see other points as out of whack and it's unfortunate both landed on the 1000 Sons. I'd rather have units like that scaled back so I could still take them and have some variety rather than spend that kind of points for a super unit that isn't any fun for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:31 pm 
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jcoplin wrote:
Wow. That's nuts. Any plans to nurf it on the platinum revision if that happens? If those points are true and I believe you when they say they reflect reality, that's a serious game issue that's no fun for anyone.

Are the Doomwings similarly OP? That kind of points suggests they also should get nurfed. I don't see other points as out of whack and it's unfortunate both landed on the 1000 Sons. I'd rather have units like that scaled back so I could still take them and have some variety rather than spend that kind of points for a super unit that isn't any fun for anyone.

James


Hi!

There were some talks of two options for Magnus, one as it stands and the other with a toned done version of the eye of magnus. Still pricey, but not "insane".

Doomwings are also very potent because of the flame template, added with a fliers movement speed. Its a very lethal combination if used appropriately.

I think the reason it has not drawn much attention is because proper use of AA elements can neutralize them to a certain extent as well as fliers to dogfight them. It's not a slam dunk like the primarch Magnus.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Their fragility to AA would suggest that they really aren't worth the 928 points. If they aren't countered, then they are a serious problem but with AA on the table, not nearly as dangerous. I'm a big fan of the mathematical point approach but fliers are a good example of how situational some points are and not just a simple calc. I wonder how the equation could be adjusted to help them "fit" better in the points. This is particularly true since something like Tzeentch doesn't have a bunch of support option and having Magnus being no fun for anyone and the basic fliers so expensive kind of makes it a pointless list.

Overall, the point system seems to be the way forward to deal with balance issues but points will need to be an all or none situation and not just choosing from whichever version. I'd like to start playing with the calculated points but fliers are an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:41 pm 
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jcoplin wrote:
Their fragility to AA would suggest that they really aren't worth the 928 points. If they aren't countered, then they are a serious problem but with AA on the table, not nearly as dangerous. I'm a big fan of the mathematical point approach but fliers are a good example of how situational some points are and not just a simple calc. I wonder how the equation could be adjusted to help them "fit" better in the points. This is particularly true since something like Tzeentch doesn't have a bunch of support option and having Magnus being no fun for anyone and the basic fliers so expensive kind of makes it a pointless list.

Overall, the point system seems to be the way forward to deal with balance issues but points will need to be an all or none situation and not just choosing from whichever version. I'd like to start playing with the calculated points but fliers are an issue.

James


Hi!

Fliers are indeed a pain, LOL!

As you mention there is a lot of situational value to them.

If you bring them and your opponent doesn't, then the value invested increases.

If your opponent invest in them more than you or effective air cover through AA, then their value decreases.

I'm not quite sure how to address that.

Additionally, fliers overall to the system have always been a difficult fit. They were introduced by GW to the original game with little thought and introduced massive imbalances (the one turn knockout became "a thing").

We've been struggling ever since trying to accommodate them as something worthwhile, but not overwhelming.

It has been a difficult nut to crack unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: NE 6 Revision Points Formula Comparison File
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:03 am 
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Unfortunately the Points Formula just cannot take into account the situational variables that change from battle to battle. At least, not in any way that I have figured out as yet. Also, it would be unworkable. For example:

Player 1: "Oh, I see that the random terrain setup came up with no buildings. This means that all of the weapons on my Titans, and other models, that can Damage or Destroy Buildings now have less value than they would have otherwise. Thus I can select more forces for my side."

or

Player 2: "Oh, I see that you failed to select any Anti Aircraft formations or any interceptor-like Flyers of your own to oppose my Flyer and Bomber heavy army. Great, that means that I win and we can both go home now."

Admittedly, that second scenario is a bit exaggerated. Just a bit though.

The only and sole purpose of the Points Formula is to put a value to the fixed stats and abilities of each stand and model that can be used in the game, in a way that is fair and balanced. Hopefully. If it is any consolation, the values in NetEpic Gold, which are based on the original GW values, also do not take any situational modifiers into account. At least, not that I am aware of.

The above said, if you have any solid ideas about how to incorporate modifiers for situational variables into the formula then I will gladly consider them. Especially if they can be applied in a way that does not require the re-valuing of a player's already selected army once the battlefield conditions and exact composition of the foe's army is known.
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As to the values of Magnus the Red, the Doomwing, and other high value models ... it is a known issue. The Formula is a work in progress, though it is relatively stable just now.

I do really need to revisit the values for Weapons, as his - and several other high end weapons - are just way too expensive. Templates also.

In the mean time, if you do use the Points Formula values (and please do, they could use some aggressive play-testing), then a rethinking of the use of Magnus the Red is in order. Whereas under 2nd and NetEpic Gold Magnus the Red was an essential figure in any Tzeentchian army (as he is just too good for his cost), under the Formula he should really only be selected when the opposing force is Titan and/or Praetorian heavy. His cost is roughly equivalent with the best Squat Praetorians and well equipped Warlord Titans. He also excels at killing such, at least once their shields are down.

I don't recall offhand why the Doom Wing is so expensive, but it is likely at least partly due to the Flamers as primarch mentioned. Also its very high Move value combined with being a Flyer. I may look at that later.


For the most up to date values, do refer to the individual threads called "Points Formula values for [army]" as many of those have had updates that are not represented in the comparison file.

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