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Vanguard Miniatures the future

 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:02 am 
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moredakka wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
I just want to point out that Reaper CAV does "6mm" and TruScale vehicles in their line. Now grantd Reaper has a bigger bank account [likely] ;)


Jimmy so they do two sizes of the same 6mm model is that what your saying?

More or less. Think Evil S-CLass tank model and GW SHT.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:25 am 
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Well, here is where I am coming from.

I don't know anyone that plays epic in my neck of the woods (Columbus, Ohio, USA), but I have always wanted to play ever sine the original Adeptus Titanicus. So my current plan is to assemble a couple armies of proxy figs that people can use and then try to drum up some support for some rule set or another. I'm currently working (veeery slowly) on a Tau army using Onslaught's OTC (guessing I have spent a thousand dollars or so with him over the past couple years). Once that is in a playable condition, my intention has always been to move on to another army. Here's the thing though. I have virtually no interest in space marines or Imperial armies. I've always been more interested in the high tech aliens, so most of your range hasn't appealed to me as a high priority. I do really like the desert guard guys you have though. Have always been very fond of Tallarn figs from GW, so the plan is to get a bunch of stuff from you eventually.

What I would be most interested in though would be a good set of Eldar proxies. I'm always checking here to see if you've expanded the Eloi range at all. Just one type of tank is not enough to convince me to pull the trigger on something.

I am surprised that infantry sells well for you, but the vehicles don't. 6mm is so small that almost anything can pass for acceptable infantry, it's the tanks and other vehicles that provide the visual distinctiveness at that scale, plus a lot of epic players seem to be big tread heads, so I would have expected the pattern to be reversed, but whatever.

As for the size issue. I don't have any of the DiD figs, so I can't comment with authority, but the fact that they are a bit big strongly appeals to me. The GW epic vehicles have always been so tiny. Even worse that the 40K scale ones when compared to the infantry.

Anyway. That is where I stand. I have been real impressed with the quality of stuff you carry, based on the pictures. I just haven't ever had any real cause to start one of your armies.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:46 am 
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The massive amount of vehicles, especially guard and Marines, that GW dumped on the market is likely to contribute somewhat on that situation I've hypothesized to John elsewhere. For instance I was able to go a couple of months back to eBay and find 2 NIB 3rd edition Griffon blisters in 5 minutes for a good enough price. That's serious amounts of lead in the resale market.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:11 am 
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moredakka wrote:
PS. Please feel free to tell me what models your looking to have created to fill gaps in existing army lists i'm open to suggestions and if you don't tell me i'll never know. ;)


I wonder if eBay is your biggest competitor; it's got plenty of vehicles, but isn't a good source of infantry. Hence your sales.

It's also a poor source for spiky vehicles (the E40k Chaos Blood Reaver box is very rare, very expensive on there). I'd buy some spiky light tanks. Yeah, I know a guy with giant shoulder pauldrons can't actually get down the hatch, but like many of us here, I have too much old stuff that will also be on the table at the same time. Besides, there's witchcraft involved so they'll find a way to fit. I was thinking that the Victory plus side sponsons would be a good basis.

The Centurion is easily my favorite of the DiD vehicles and I wish it had come out years ago. But it's one of those things that, thanks to the competition, I don't need right now. I totally understand if you decide not to release support versions of it... but that's a niche without much direct competition, and it'd be a better aesthetic fit than the Warrior chassis.

Spiky guncrabs would be good, too. Along with certain infantry/monster types, they're things that aren't really covered by other companies or the used miniature market.


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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:54 am 
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Hi John,

I have just placed a £70 order for some DiD miniatures, mostly vehicles as just got some expenses paid!

Reading through the previous posts, although I intend getting back to playing EA I want your miniatures for other games so are looking forward to continued releases. I will support you on the 6mm front as much as I can ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:40 pm 
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What miniature would I like to see, I think you should do something like heavy AA gun, akin to german Flak 36 88mm. It could be used in DKOK list and any others as heavy AA platform.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:54 pm 
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I think that some kid of spideresque Eloi would sell very well. Also some kind of SH-skimmer that fires disruptive barrages. Thoose are in very high demand.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:18 pm 
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I really do hope something like Polyversal takes off. It gives players the options to play however they want, and would really help the independent 6mm producers like yourself.
I always find it more satisfying to play a game that has a a united scene, with most people playing the exact same ruleset. This is mostly because I move around a lot, and it is hard enough learning rules, when you have to learn them all over again for each new group you play with.

As to what I think would sell well... I have to be honest and say that as a group the people on this board don't seem to know what sells well. Otherwise you would have made those things. I think that any divergent and untested suggestion on here should be stuck in the 'will fund if enough preorders' pile, because otherwise it's another big risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:37 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
I think that some kid of spideresque Eloi would sell very well. Also some kind of SH-skimmer that fires disruptive barrages. Thoose are in very high demand.


You speak the truth! :D From my expreience, these types are minis that occur very infrequently in the usual buy/sell/swap forums. I think this is a very important variable and a hint that there might be a market.

Couple this with the fact that there are several popular list alternatives that could use them, and you are still not certain of success, but it is way better than supplying stuff already in ample supply and/or unpopular.

Again, scaling is of the essence. To be attractive to old muppets like myself, you will have to provide sizes that are at least workable and not too visually displeasing next to older inferior models. Again, this might not ensure success, but I cannot see it working against you either.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Another battery of replies whilst i've been stuck in work i'll try to answer everyones questions in the one reply.

I am hearing everyone on the scale issue it's something i'll look into but it's far to late to abandon what i've already had created. Looking at doing a smaller more chimera like vehicle but nothing solid yet the centurion will stay as is and the new turrets will be out next month. Elites vehicles will need further consideration but no matter how I proceed the current models will remain in stock.

My new line of tainted troops will se massive expansion over time it's a range close to my heart and I feel we can really do it justice.

Eloi yes the poor eloi really need some attention we did start on a new jetbike plus a few new infantry prototypes a while back see E&C's vanguard thread for pics these will be back in focus soon and yes I want to do more grav tanks for them which i'm looking to have as a more modular effort at least for core hulls so start posting your ideas in the apppropriate section and show me what you want.

And yes a large flak cannon should appear sometime to.

@ General_Mayhem, many thanks for the order sir appreciated your support is most welcome.

As for spikey tanks well I need tanks that people want to buy before I start modifying them with spikey decor.

Cheers guys.

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 Post subject: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:53 am 
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It seems like every time I get caught up in real life and am away from hobbies for a bit, a company or community disappears! (Poor Relicnews forums...). Fortunately, VM is still here, even if the direction is going to shift a little. One thing I might suggest is trying to increase the outreach of VM: seeing things pop up on Warseer and Dakka are really good for exposure, I think, so maybe people here could use their natural reach to post 6 mm-related things on other gaming sites (e.g. painting logs, battle reports and so on).

As I've been reading the interesting points in this thread (the eBay point in particular is a good one!), I've noticed that there seem to be several classes of miniature buyers in the 6 mm world at the moment, many caused by the appearance and disappearance of GW's games over the years. Unfortunately, several of those groups have quite different ideas about what kinds of miniatures they are interested in, but I think one solution is to do something similar to what's already been done with the HH-esque Novan Elites tanks: make several vehicle chassis ranging from small versions up to large versions, and let players use different sizes for different purposes.

For example, if one was trying to represent the humble Space Marine Rhino (from GW's classic game Epic (TM)(R)(C)(TM)) one could make a 'true' scale infantry carrier chassis, and a light/mini tank. The light/mini tank could be about the same size as the classic (and definitely smaller than 'true' scale) Epic Rhino, and make an easy stand in (especially with detachable turret). One might even only need one extra chassis on the small end of the scale, since the 'true' scale infantry carrier might be about the same size as the GW-scale Land Raider. Anyways, perhaps some food for thought about future things.

Since I've noticed it, and I spent the minute writing out all the points anyways :P this is some of the major divisions of 6 mm collectors in the wild that I've observed (and not all are mutually exclusive):
- GW-scale 'faithful': these veteran gamers or new fans of GW's particular scale and style prefer models that match the old GW offerings (recognising that GW was fairly loose with scale itself!). I imagine most are veteran gamers with large collections from the past.
- New collectors of 6 mm games: these gamers don't have large collections or are interested in starting armies afresh. Now they don't have to conform to GW's scale, they're freer to choose scale, and it seems many like things to be in 'true' scale, e.g. where 10 marines can fit in an APC.
- EA gamers: these particular gamers want to make successful armies for a particular game (e.g. EA), even if those armies are a bit contrived because of the rules system. This means they sometimes want eclectic models rather than complete or more 'standard' ranges.
- 'Background' gamers: these gamers want to make armies that suit the background regardless of game system they play.
- GW aesthetes: these players like GW style but are happy or content to see new interpretations that only broadly reflect the originals.
- Non-GW aesthetes: these players either dislike GW aesthetics or don't mind what if their miniatures are GW-esque.

Perhaps someone has a different impression of the community? It might be worth starting a new discussion thread about this in particular. It could make an interesting resource for manufacturers who come here.

In closing, I thought I'd say something about my own ambitions to collect 6 mm miniatures. I'm quite interested in the GW Eldar aesthetic but while the basic Eloi infantry are good, the range is very limited if one wants to explore the wider range of unit types in EA. And (definitely no offence to Evil and Chaos's fine efforts!) the tanks are not quite the bat-wing aesthetic I would really like and can't find elsewhere. I think this inability to make a varied force really limits what you can do, especially with EA's peculiarities. Even for modern warfare, the range is lacking aircraft, helicopter, and battle tank niches (as examples; arguably, their tanks can do APC, MBT, and helicopter roles but there still isn't much variation).

But I am definitely a big fan of the design and cast quality, and the true scale approach (which I think is really admirable). Alas, lack of an existing (convenient) 6 mm gamer environment nearby, the general cost of miniatures gaming (including being in Australia) combines with my severe lack of time and spare energy to keep 6 mm gaming as a pipe dream only, despite the stellar rules and miniatures available. Perhaps that's the biggest thing: perhaps economic slowdown and the failings of the Western ultra-consumerist model are now actually starting to cut into the time and energy available for artistic endeavours like miniatures gaming?


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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:44 am 
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To be sure, I think the most important objection to "true" scale is the huge size in itself. Not whether you could fit 10 Marines in a rhino or not. With smaller marines, there would not be much of a compatibility issue. And this goes beyond the gigantic marine thing. The transporter being my top example.

To be sure aesthetics matter. Eloi is likely a challenge. Do not settle for good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:52 pm 
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True on the aesthetics for Eloi. It has to be just right otherwise you might as well use that cash for toilet paper.

I don't think truescale INF matter for most people. They've never been in scale anyways. That's not the issue. Hell truescale regardless isn't really the issue. It's that existing stuff is at a particular set of dimensions and it's hard to mix and match with the bigger things unless you start from the get-go with it.

Just thinking out loud here but I wonder if something like archetype demons and demon run war engines might actually be a big deal. There's almost NO proxies and, at least for me, the GW models are utter shite and I would love something more modern looking.

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 Post subject: Re: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:09 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Just thinking out loud here but I wonder if something like archetype demons and demon run war engines might actually be a big deal. There's almost NO proxies and, at least for me, the GW models are utter shite and I would love something more modern looking.


+1. It has taken me forever to find components for my Black Crusade army, and I despair of getting enough models for a reasonable Daemon World army.

Re "classes of collectors": I have no particular preference for either scale or aesthetic, but it is important that a complete range of models is available for a particular army before I start working on it - a single tank or specialist infantryman, while nice, will not sell to me.

Completeness of offering is, to me, more important for vehicles than for infantry. The old monopose Marines and Eldar, and the DiD plastic skinnerz and guardsmen, are adequate to create their armies; role distinctions can be indicated by paint, and leaders can be picked out by banners. Leader and individualized infantry sculpts are cool, but not essential. However, the same is not true for vehicles and war engines; These must look "enough" like what they're supposed to represent for me to use them.


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 Post subject: Vanguard Miniatures the future
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Ooh! Jimmy just reminded me : Deamons! I forgot to add that last night.

(EDIT : Post crossed with STM.)

Yeah, daemon proxies are hard to find (or at least good ones imho). Onslaught's horny chaps are really nice but I'm afraid not in high demand in EA as they are not very good in game (again - advice specific to EA). Claw ladies are a bit better [in game] i understand.

I can personally vouch for flame daemons being hard to find (and their rules are head and shoulders better than others). Not sure which other daemons are sought after?

The good news is that you can go to archetypes from folklore for inspiration on the design front.


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Last edited by Blip on Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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