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Tyranid Variant Lists

 Post subject: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:45 pm 
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I want to start by saying that my intention here is not to be a jerk or a dictator but rather to focus development on getting a 'nid list "finished" for Epic: Xenos and general tourney scenario play.

That being said I see variant Tyranid lists is one of two categories.

  • Those that use the current special rules and unit stats
  • Those that don't

For the second group here's my policy. I'm fine with you doing what you want. Epic isn't a big community and I don't feel the need to crack down on people that just want to share what they're doing with others on these forums. It's a game and it's meant to be fun, I don't intend to interfere with that.

However, it needs to be realized that this forum (NetEA Tyranids) is for the development of the NetEA Tyranid list, not fan lists. So here's what I'm asking: if you want to put together a 'nid list that doesn't use the current special rules and unit stats then please label the thread as a "[Fan List]" and post it in another forum (Epic Armageddon will probably work).

In any case, I'd hope you'd at least try the current list before you put something else forward. Obviously I can't make you do that but I can ask you to help the community out in putting together a good list.

----

For the first group you guys have to do a bit more for me (call it a favor between developers). If you want to develop a 'nid list that does use the current special rules and stats then I'm asking for five battle reports with the current 'nid list from you. I don't need pictures (although they are helpful) just an activation by activation breakdown.

I look at it this way. If you have enough time to seriously develop something then you have enough time to help me out with testing the main list. In a way you'll be helping yourself out as well because you'll be using the same stats and rules in your variant anyway.

Finally, I'd like to note that Weapons name changes are OK in variant lists. Just let me know what you're renaming from the ref sheet (eg, Gargoyles having Fleshborers instead of Flamespurts, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:54 pm 
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I don't have any "old stuff" models, but I'll be extensively testing the special rules and shared unit stats in the "new stuff" list, which will be valuable feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:14 am 
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Wow. No.

i'm preeeetty sure that the NetEA Tyranids forum is for developing Tyranid lists for NetEA. not just your one. infact, i seem to recall that your 'variant' list was placed here, back before you became the big cheese.
every other forum has variant lists under its subheading in it, the NetEA Eldar section has more than just the Swordwind Errata in it. saying "i'm not trying to be a dictator" and then acting exactly like a dictator (silencing dissent and stiffling what you percieve as 'the competition') doesnt really fit well together, and actions speak louder than words.

i realise that the nid list development in particular has suffered from the "everyone hated 9.2.1 and made a bunch of lists on their own so nothing got done" troubles. but the problem there wasnt that a bunch of lists got made, it was the other part. if everyone hates your list, then you should change your list, or move it away from the 'core' position and adopt a more popular list as the main one. being an AC isnt "your list becomes the core one" in any respect, its a position where you are required to serve the populace's interests, even if it is at the expense of your own.

if people like the list you've put forward, it'll get playtest data. trying to squeeze out the competition and force playtests out of players is bullshit, probably wont work, and yes, it kinda makes you look like an jerk. as much as you may wish it to be, for whatever reason, your list is not the only NetEA tyranid list, and should not be the only NetEA tyranid list. because that isnt how the NetEA community works.

if you're worried that your list will not be immediately recognisable as the 'Core' list (and setting aside the debate about if such a thing exists at all) then you should take steps in your own thread (or post a 'list of Tyranid Lists' thread, with your list at the top with a big "this is the most up to date 'main list' please conduct playtests accordingly) to make this clear. attempting to shut out all competition is at the very least, bogus (and i would hope, very much against the policies of the forum and the ERC in general)

on to my more specific (rather than philosophical) problems as a list developer/playtester

I don't have an (epic) tyranid army, I dont own a whole lot of epic tyranid models. I cant make a tyranid army using your lists without a hell of a lot of proxy (and unlike IG/SM style lists, tyranid proxy is much trickier due to the numerous unit types and highly mixed formations) and i'm not particularly keen on playing a mainline tyranid list at the moment anyway.
what i do have, and want to test, is a bunch of tyranid biotitans. I cant test this style of list using your version, it needs a variant list. so i've made one.

I also dont play a lot of games lately. that may be changing in a few weeks when new fellows arrive in town, but at the moment, i tend to get 1 game of epic in every two or four weeks. I currently develop my own list (with little in the way of outside feedback at the moment, though i'm fairly happy with most of its stability) as well as playtest other lists i've got some key interest in. I cant afford to dedicate 3-4 months of my playtesting schedule to testing an army i dont have, and don't particularly want, just so i can 'earn the right' to show and playtest an army that i do (which would add yet another one to my high rotation list)

activation by activation breakdown reports arent simple things to write up, i dont even do them for my own list most of the time.

and no, if i have time to develop a list, its probably means i DONT have time to develop yours for you aswell. if i have time to develop my list, i could have spent that time developing your list, but didnt. i may have time to test your list out, i may not, but if i spend time on my list, by the very nature of time itself, that means i have less time to spend on your list, not more.

as for 'favour between developers' will you be contributing an equal level of data to the variant lists yourself? regardless of how reciprocal the 'favour' is. i have trouble calling it a 'favour' when it is demanded. so lets call it 'extortion' instead.

also can you explain how a variant list, which uses all the same rules and units as the main list is a variant list? or are we infact allowed some variance in rules and/or units?
my list, for instance, uses your rules for initiative and synapse and mobility and whatever (though i still think that regeneration needs more beef if its going to compare with void & power fields, i would be willing to conduct tests on that matter) and no spawning (though if it did, i'd be fine with it towing the party line on that one too)
however, i have slightly different stats on two units, a few with current stats, and a few new units to fill out the selections.
that is what makes it a variant list. Variety

i do not see that my list (or infact, anyone elses variants) should be shuffled off somewhere 'out of sight' so that your list can reign supreme. your list should achieve supremacy by being the better list, not by being the only list available by decree of the big giant head.

i do think that people should give the current ruleset a try before posting their new versions of the list. (by which i mean, we shouldnt have people going "well i want spawning to be different, so here's the same list but with different spawning" until they've actually given yours a shot) but when they do, those lists should be here. if that list turns out to be more popular/balanced/fun than yours, tough. that shows what people want, and your list can adopt and adapt, or you can wither away. it's the process you used vs the 9.2.1, and its the right way to do things.

but people with properly variant lists (such as, for instance, bio titan lists and genestealer cult lists) should be welcomed here with open arms, not shunned. they fill a niche currently left bare with the core list, and improve the game as a whole in the process. when people go looking for an Imperial Guard Tank List, they look in the Imperial Guard section, because that is what the section is for. the same is true for tyranids.

perhaps if you want a dedicated 'Tyranids V10.0.0' forum you should ask CS to make you a subforum within the tyranids forum for it.

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Last edited by Jaggedtoothgrin on Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:28 am 
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Encouraging people to playtest is all good. Getting people to put "Fan List" in the thread title for their threads makes it clear enough to newcomers but I think such threads should still stay in this section of the forum rather than going elsewhere, that's what's always happened in the past with variant lists.

I don't have a nid list myself but I'll happily play anyone I meet who does.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:34 am 
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sigh..


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:29 am 
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Frankly this sub forum should primarily be used to develop the NetEA list that the NetEA appointed champion is developing.

It was only the rot caused by several successive idle & absentee army champions that allowed multiple replacement lists to flourish... It made the NetEA tyranids sub forum look like a complete joke, and that should not be the normal state of affairs.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:41 am 
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The Space Marine forum has plenty of variant Space Marine lists, same for the Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks etc.
So why banishing variant Tyranid lists from the Tyranid forum?
If all would follow this we woul dhave the Other Forces forum full of different variant armylists with almost no order.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:47 am 
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Quote:
So why banishing variant Tyranid lists from the Tyranid forum?

Because you'll never get a single balanced army list if everyone is off doing their own thing all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:49 am 
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But all the variant lists use the same set of stats and special rules. The Nids lists should too.

Less certain about the "5 games with my list" demand. Zombo testing the "modern stuff" list is just as valid testing of the rules as using Onachus.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:01 am 
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variant lists by their very nature use new stats or special rules. thats what makes them variants, and not just "the same list"

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:09 am 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
variant lists by their very nature use new stats or special rules. thats what makes them variants, and not just "the same list"


No they don't. Marine lists don't use new stats for tacticals.

What variant lists do is add a couple of new unit types, sometimes replacing old one (like "dark angel tactical squad"), and maybe add a special rule or two. They do not replace the entire old army.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:29 am 
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i dont think that is what is being said here. he's not saying 'dont change lictor stats without also changing the lictor name' so much as he's saying 'dont use stats or rules other than mine'

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:37 am 
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Quote:
he's saying 'dont use stats or rules other than mine'

Which is a perfectly fine thing for the NetEA champion to say about variant lists posted in the NetEA army lists sub forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:38 am 
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no, it absolutely isnt.

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