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Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations

 Post subject: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:45 am 
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Hey guys
my name is Steven and I've lurked about these forums for some time, having recently gotten back into Epic.
By chance I picked up a good deal on a Tyranid army set and used that today (using the version 10 list found here http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=21743) and will do so again tomorrow at the Victorian tournament.

My first observation is the Genestealers need work - that or please change the name to Generobbers or Evil Clawed things or what you like....these are NOT the 'stealers that infest space hulks and the imperium has to deploy Terminators to cleanse them. These are grade B infantrymen from a Tyranid cult dressed in 'Stealer costumes!
As a suggestion 2x 2+CC First Strike Lance attacks per stand would be a better reflection of what a GS unit should do. At 300pt they're not cheap, let's remember, and limited as well, but they are not scary at all and that's what genestealers should be..
Infiltration - superb (they need it to get to attack)
Scout - I don't really think they need this, but that's just me. Swapping that for lance and giving them twice the attacks at a higher (the same would be the best, but I understand the need for balance) base would be a start.

Regeneration - I don't know how much playtesting has gone thus far and I'll really only have a more balanced view in coming months but as it stands the way this works doesn't really allow the unit to take advantage of it because unlike void shields it occurs at the end of the turn only and the creature in point (with only 3 or 4 DC) will be dead before it can have a go at regenerating. It feels "gamey".

A suggestion may be to have one regeneration instance per creature per turn, wherein the creature can "spontaneously" regenerate 2d3 DC as part of a Hold action or 1d3 at the end of the turn. That would force the player to make a call as to whether or not the creature will make it to the end of the turn or not (if it probably won't move it to a more defensible position, maybe out of LOS, where it will regenerate at the end of the turn, or if regeneration is top priority because it's almost dead then go the Hold option and stall the formation to give the creature a fighting chance)

If it's a point debacle make both more expensive, I for one wouldn't have a problem with that. But the GS in the list aren't worthy of the name, while regeneration can do with some tweaking.

Now the "bad" is out of the way (LOL!) thanks to the Champion and Assistant for putting this together in the first place (especially the pdf with the descriptions) and of course a developmental list is going to take some work, no questions there. Let's bear in mind, too, that Tyranids are a very hard army to track down if not through here or ebay so footslitherers aside I think MOST players would be ok with paying more for units (having smaller pools of miniatures to draw on) so long as these work the way they should - ie GS are scary motha#$%&@s and regenerating creatures are a real thorn in the side to kill. As is that's simply not the case. But the rest of the list looks great, I'll know more after tomorrow when I'll have run another three games with them.

:D
Regards and thank you
S.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:11 am 
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There was some discussion of the difference between SH Genestealers and WH40k/E:A Genestealers.

IIRC the conclusion was that WH40k and E:A Genestealers were much closer in capability, and rightly so: Space Hulk is about boarding combat in extremely confined spaces -- rattenkrieg in 3-d. The situation is qualitatively different from that normally portrayed in WH40k or E:A.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:18 am 
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Actually makes excellent sense
Justifies the one attack. Have you a link to the 'cussion by any chance?

Maybe there it'll transpire why no Lance, which would be a physiological rather than environmental characteristic of their weapon

But the single attack makes sense in this light.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:42 am 
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Lance wouldn't be appropriate, they're excellent infantry killers but no good against tanks - their armour penetration in 40k is 4 + D6 + D3 ie. just enough to glance a Predator one time in 18 attacks if they are lucky enough roll a 6 and a 3 on the D3. It's impossible for them to harm a Land Raider.

If there was some way to make them lance against infantry only, then yes that would be appropriate, but that's not how the special rule was written.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:09 pm 
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2nd ed stealers were capable against tanks - not as good as a Krak grenade (the grenade did d6 wounds), but they had 4 attacks to the grenade-wielding troopers single attack. It's been a long time, but I don't think they threatened tanks from the front, but their speed and infiltration gave them good opportunities to hit the rear arc.

But still nothing like even a lascannon, so the normal epic rules should cover it well. Maybe upgrade their CC stats, but at CC2+ First Strike, Infiltrate they are already dangerous in cc, with the same charge range as eldar mounted troops as well.

Maybe give their CC attacks Ignore Cover to represent how they get more dangerous if you hide, not less :)


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:25 pm 
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or sniper, to provide a -1 to saves, but that does start to step heavily on lictor toes. i like the idea of lance, because it makes them good terminator killers, which is what genestealers are good at.
frankly, i'd rather they have 2 attacks a piece, at a lower score (perhaps only give the lance strike to the rending claws EA, not the basic claws)

but genestealers are (or were) one of the better tank-busting options in the nid codex (remember that when you hit a vehicle in combat you automatically hit the back armour)

if nothing else, they're not a particularly potent fighting unit at 300 points, and they dont seem particularly representitive of the genestealers i've experienced in several editions of 40k and space hulk

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
because it makes them good terminator killers, which is what genestealers are good at.
... at engagement ranges of 40 ft. or less.


punkskum wrote:
Actually makes excellent sense
Justifies the one attack. Have you a link to the 'cussion by any chance?

Maybe there it'll transpire why no Lance, which would be a physiological rather than environmental characteristic of their weapon

But the single attack makes sense in this light.

The discussion is in the thread referring -- oh-so-transparently -- to 'GS balance':

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=21581&start=60

Space Hulk comes up bottom page 5, comments by Mattthemuppet and Simulated Knave's comment.

Despite a couple digressions, the discussion does grind through a lot of debate over lictor and genestealer effectiveness.


Last edited by Carrington on Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Since when are they 300 points? They're 150 points in both lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:44 pm 
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If you buy 12 of them?

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid version 10 playtest - Genestealer observations
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Then don't?

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