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Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point

 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:36 pm 
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fredmans wrote:
And as I remember it, each player developed personal dropping techniques to minimize scatter.


Yup, you could be very precise with a tiny bit of practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Bump.

Trying to bring this back on track. My two opinions:
Dave's method is the best method I've seen proposed for the dropping of formations.
I'm still not terribly keen on it.

Anyone else have anything new they want to bring to the table?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:53 pm 
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I think the consensus of the majority is to use planetfall and a spacecraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Anyone else have anything new they want to bring to the table?

I'm not sure if this counts as strictly "new" but...

Having both faced and used Dave's method, I have to say it's not so random as has been asserted above. The two purely random elements are the turn in which each formation arrives and the scatter of the landing spot. When choosing the landing spot, strategy comes into play when you have to think "where can I place this so that when the defender moves it 45cm, it still lands somewhere useful?" In a board full of enemy FM's, this is an interesting proposition - both fun and annoying in equal measure. Most of the time, you still end up in assault range of an enemy FM.

The ensuing scatter roll also happens in other brands of planetfall anyway, so the really unique element is turn of arrival. The 'nid player is really screwed if each FM comes in piecemeal, i.e. one a turn. If they mostly arrive in the first turn, it's complicated for the 'nids as they have to choose carefully. I can imagine the 'nid player just adding the landing fm's to the front of the swarm, or hitting a flank. Of course, they don't have to come down at the beginning of the turn either, so there's a lot of flexibility and ability for the 'nids to support the landing fm. There is a strong element of "crap shoot" with the turn of arrival thing, but unless you're doing a turn 1 planetfall with SM into the opposing deployment zone, there's an element of randomness to regular planetfall as well - you either guess the enemy's intentions correctly or not.
The elements of randomness aren't overpowering, especially considering that this is a game that includes a fair amount of random-result dice rolling (unless you're using Dave's dice of course :P )

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:32 pm 
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The random arrival kills it for me. I'm not sure if planetfall is the correct way, I like special scenarios better.

edit: I would like random better if formations arrived automatically in turn 3. A GT game may well end after turn 3, so having a chance for formations to never arrive is pretty shitty. 5+ first turn, 4+ second, automatic third makes it even odds which turn they appear, but they will appear before goals are scored.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:15 pm 
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The arrival roll (along with scatter, distance moved, deployed radius) are all open to change. For that though I need test. I'm more curious as to whether the mechanic can work.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Dave wrote:
The arrival roll (along with scatter, distance moved, deployed radius) are all open to change. For that though I need test. I'm more curious as to whether the mechanic can work.

Planetfall has been tested already. Why try and insert something (a personal preference) rather than use an established rule that it appears the majority would rather go with.

Seriously, if it is the amount of rules that has killed Nid production in the past, then it is the AC at fault here for trying to push yet another rule to divide opinions. I already have a player refusing to play against a nid list with an 'arrival' roll, so you can count one less playtester (and more importantly another metagame) right there.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Ulrik, the purpose of the random fall is to show the Tyranids landing willy nilly all over the planet. They simply don't launch and land the way a planetfall mechanic calls for. Zombocom's alternate solution to have a larger scatter range might work to simplify things but it really should be an unplotted method of set-up.

If people are that turned off by the randomness of the fall, we should scrap it for tournament scenarios and send it to the back of the book for scenarios. But I doubt many people have actually seen a game where Tyranids planetfall in. It is terribly unfair and impossible to balance - worse than random in my book.

One last thought is instead we could make it so that the player opposing the Tyranid player gets to plot where the formations 'land' with established rules. Something like 'A minimum of 50% of all formations must arrive on turn 1, with the remaining formations arriving turn 2. Each formation must be set up a minimum of 20cm away from any other formation.' That takes a major chunk of randomness out of the equation, would be very quick to do, require no dice rolling, and spreads the Tyranids all over place on one half of the board. It certainly puts the Tyranid player at a disadvantage and thusly the 'drop' could be a credit that your army achieves (make it worth -200 points).

All these values are off the top of my head so don't beat me to death with minutia. I'm just throwing out an idea I came up with hoping to spur a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:23 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Planetfall has been tested already. Why try and insert something (a personal preference) rather than use an established rule that it appears the majority would rather go with.

Seriously, if it is the amount of rules that has killed Nid production in the past, then it is the AC at fault here for trying to push yet another rule to divide opinions. I already have a player refusing to play against a nid list with an 'arrival' roll, so you can count one less playtester (and more importantly another metagame) right there.


Having tried Planetfall with my group and the Tyranids with Phase III I'd rather not go back there again. I'll say it again, it's not fun to play with or against. Add it not being representative of the fluff and you'll have my reasons for avoiding it.

I put these rules up here as a stop-gap measure for people interested in testing them, either test them or don't. I'm not looking for opinions on them at this point, if I was I would have asked for them. Play a game with or without them, I don't care I'd just like playtests.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:34 am 
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For all the opinions stating that "it's not fun to play with or against" and "terribly unfair and impossible to balance", you are ignoring the fact that armies have the options for this now. Whether that be Marines, Chaos or Necrons, this already exists and players chose whether to use them or not.

Pretending that your metagame is all that is important is only going to push people away. Stating "I'm not looking for opinions on them at this point, if I was I would have asked for them. Play a game with or without them, I don't care I'd just like playtests" will get playtests alright, but probably not of the list you want. We have seen it time and again, people will take this list and insert the rule that they want to use and be damned with any reports. While this is what the hobby supposedly professes, it does nothing for development.

As an AC, I would hope that you would at least be open to changing things and considering all input. All I have seen is Onachus pushed forward with little regard to ideas and opinions expressed.

It's not personal, I am just being honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:36 am 
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Furthermore... the list should be made for the NetEA, not to reach a timeline for a fan publication.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 am 
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Armies do have options to planetfall now, but not ones CC-orientated to the point of the bugs.

I'm not saying my meta game is all important but it's the only thing I have to go by. No one else posted Phase III batreps or has even tried it as far as I know. All I have been given is uncorroborated opinions saying that it'll work. I'm asking for some games to be put forward instead.

You're entitled to your opinion that V10 is purely Onachus but if you'd like to compare special rules and stats from it's last list you'll find quite a few changes that are there because of the discussions on this board. Speed bumps, swarming/tiebreak changes, regeneration all spring to mind. You obviously don't agree with them all, fine. Put forward some games and show me where the problems are.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:34 am 
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So basically you're going to ram through a rule that nobody outside of your own gaming group seems to like.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:18 am 
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I'd ideally like an (expensive) hiveship and planetfall option (with perhaps and increased scatter) than a convoluted special rule, in fact I'd rather see no dropping at all than a convoluted rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Additions: Planetary Assault and Entry Point
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:22 am 
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zombocom wrote:
I'd ideally like an (expensive) hiveship and planetfall option (with perhaps and increased scatter) than a convoluted special rule, in fact I'd rather see no dropping at all than a convoluted rule.

Put that into Leviathan then?

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