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Hive Fleet Dagon v4.1 and original F-ERC lists

 Post subject: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.1 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Inspired by the F-ERC Tyranids, my take on this list is named "Hive Fleet Dagon".

There are three versions of this list; Hive Fleet Dagon, a translation of F-ERC v2018 and a translation of the 2013 version. The 2013 version is approved for tournament use in Sweden.

Hive Fleet Dagon is mostly F-ERC stats and rules along with a bunch of changes and mixes with stats and rules from NetEA and E-UK. It uses ordinary terms for everything. This is the list I will be playtesting from now on unless something changes.

The two originals are obviously translated versions for those who like that and/or wants to compare.

Update 7/6 v3.5
Had a very successful pair of games yesterday, playing some special scenarios with a bunch of people, among others Borka and Argol. Confirmed to me that I'm on the right track with the list, and got some great suggestions for improvements.

-> The Harpies are no longer Flyers, instead they've got almost the same stats as in Hive Fleet Gorgon (5+ FF instead of 4+). They are now bought as an instinctive swarm in pairs of 2 for 100pts. Can be taken by all Synapse Swarms except the Infestation swarm.
-> Lictors are no longer 0-2, are bought in groups of 5, with up to two extra for 25pts each.
-> Clarified that the Hive Mind Locus ability does not work if all models with it are off board (specifically if the Dagon Overlord is deployed in a SS).

Update 20/8 v4.1
Had a look at whether it would be possible to harmonize Hive Fleet Dagon with Onachus and Gorgon, and I think it might be doable, at least to some extent. I think the list will play mostly similar to before, but as expected there's going to be some pretty significant differences, too many to list here.

edit: v4.1 fixes some typos and changes the buff to the Hierodule Primes from better CC to Invulnerable Save.

Stuff that's definitely still in:
The "Semi-expendable" rule is now called the "Gaunts" rule, just like in FERC 2018.
Synapse Swarms that's lost all Synapse creatures can't even contest objectives.
Synapse creatures that are normally Inf are Light Vehicles
Option to double move (counts as having marched) when forced to hold

Stuff that's certainly not in:
Anything to do with Swarming.

Stuff that's got better:
-> 1+ initiative across the board, and better rallying
-> Gaunts and Dagon Raveners are expendable
-> Better Harradian stats
-> Synapse Swarms with Synapse creatures can absorb those without.
-> Malefactor got 4+ Reinforced

Stuff that's got worse:
-> Tyranid Warriors and Zoanthropes are just worse. But with all the other boosts from swapping rules, maybe that's a good thing.
-> Biovores lost AA
-> Synapse no longer includes Leader, meaning that there are very few units with Leader anywhere in the list.

All these changes obviously needs some playtesting, so we'll see how stable v4.0 turns out to be. But I think the trade-off between weaker Synapse creatures and a bunch of boosts might balance out quite well.

Hive Fleet Dagon is now playable on Tabletop Simulator! https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1372913607

Army Forge builder for v4.1 can be found @
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... agon_NETEA

All feedback and reactions welcome, on all versions.


Attachments:
NetEA FERC Tyranids 4,1.pdf [135.13 KiB]
Downloaded 12 times
FERC Tyranids Original 2018.pdf [124.38 KiB]
Downloaded 33 times
French Tyranids Original.pdf [122.84 KiB]
Downloaded 42 times

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 60 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm 
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I like the idea of seeing some more 'Nid love out there so cool beans. I've not really compared this list unit stats from the established Hive Fleet Onachus ones but just a note to harmonize the two or build name variants wherever they go off the established ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:31 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
I like the idea of seeing some more 'Nid love out there so cool beans. I've not really compared this list unit stats from the established Hive Fleet Onachus ones but just a note to harmonize the two or build name variants wherever they go off the established ones.


This is of course entirely correct, and I'm now trying to implement that in the list.

A big problem so far is that Onachus uses the old terminology for bio-titans where the F-ERC uses the new. This means the F-ERC Hierodule is now a much smaller beast than in the past, while the Onachus Hierophant refers to the older Hierodule, and the biggest Bio-Titan in F-ERC is known as the Hydraphant. Not sure how to resolve this intelligently, right now I've just put the prefix "Dagon" before most things that are different.

A second, perhaps bigger problem is that the number of differences stack up quite severely to the point that it may become too confusing to separate the stats between Onachus, Dagon and F-ERC. The simplest way to resolve all this confusion may be to take the NetEA stats in all places where one can possibly have them and then re-price everything, or do the same with the F-ERC stats. Trying to take stats from both and then changing some of them to something in between might just be a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:25 pm 
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So I'm guessing I'll have to take the train/bus up to the capitol and playtest this list now? :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:19 am 
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mordoten wrote:
So I'm guessing I'll have to take the train/bus up to the capitol and playtest this list now? :-)


Sounds like a plan. Just gotta get my models from Vanguard first, and convert everything... Might be a few weeks!

Also, updated the main header.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:18 am 
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So I'm guessing you would like to see the Beta version being the one mostly tested?

And I'll race ya getting an army finished. I'm ordering my stuff today!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:52 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
So I'm guessing you would like to see the Beta version being the one mostly tested?


In my humble opinion I think it a more interesting take on an already quite interesting list. The one thing I'm a bit uncertain about is the added Macro to the Dominatrix. But I did raise the points to compensate.

The general idea is that the main version is for tournaments and the beta is for home play. Maybe in a year or so we decide that the beta (however it looks at that point) is the new main version.

mordoten wrote:
And I'll race ya getting an army finished. I'm ordering my stuff today!


Man, I've got a ton of work to do before I'll be able to bring this to the table. You might well win this race. That being said, I've got ideas for how to buy or convert every single model in the list in quantity (except the Dagon Hydraphant. Don't think I'll ever field more than one, and I'm using a 28mm Hive Tyrant as a base for conversion) so I'm definitely going to take 4000 points of 'Nids to Lincon.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Would be nice to do a get together in Stockholm. I have nids as well as you know and so does Steve. If we can get four other people to come than we have the potential for a lot of testing to get done. I wouldn't mind testing to play against your gargants as well mordoten.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Would be nice to do a get together in Stockholm. I have nids as well as you know and so does Steve. If we can get four other people to come than we have the potential for a lot of testing to get done. I wouldn't mind testing to play against your gargants as well mordoten.


Yeah, and I've got my Traitor Titan Legion that needs testing too.

Anyone got any opinions on the changes in the beta? Can really recommend reading the french tactica as well, ought to be legible with G-translate.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:33 am 
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Yeah, I'm up for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:49 am 
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I have to talk my wife into visiting Stockholm soon I presume... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:59 am 
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Post updated

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Post updated (again!)

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:42 pm 
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mind outlining the changes? don't always have time to compare two different PDFs on a mobile but still interested in keeping my finger on the pulse, so to speak

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:00 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
mind outlining the changes? don't always have time to compare two different PDFs on a mobile but still interested in keeping my finger on the pulse, so to speak


There are quite a few at this point, and they're all (very helpfully) highlighted in purple ;D

But to give an overview: It's been a three staged process. First making some units that are pointless and/or weird be less so. Identifying which was done by reading this very handy tactica on the original french list: http://epic-fr.niceboard.com/t5466-tact ... nides-ferc

From this, I decided that Raveners were pointless, so they became synapse creatures. The Tyrannofex were also pointless, and also weird i various ways, so I made them cheaper and more useful.

The Hydralisk wasn't worth its points, so I gave it thick rear armour and better FF.

The Harpies were pointless, so they got Disrupt on their BP.

The Dagon Dominatrix got Macro on its shooting and AA.

The Venomtylis got +1 in Armour, CC and FF.

Secondly, it's been some work to re-name everything with names that makes sense from a fluff point of view and sound good.

Lastly it's been a case identifying what units could be harmonized with the existing NetEA list. Not that many as it turns out (at this point basically Termagaunts/Hormagaunts and Genestealers, and the former have relatively little in common with NetEA apart from the basic stats). I also added the special rule regeneration to the bio-titans in exchange for a small bump in points, since Reg is more or less the equivalent of 1/2 DC. We also decided to make it possible for one "Nexus Tyrant" to become Supreme Commander like in the NetEA list.

Hopefully we'll get some playtest going soon!

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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