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Hive Fleet Dagon v4.1 and original F-ERC lists

 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:15 pm 
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ahh missed that edit on the OP. when I clicked though I went to the very last post and went "man that's going to be a bear to figure out" never mind then! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:59 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:15 pm 
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The list looks quite more interesting than the official NetEA or EpicUK one, so thank you Mrdiealot. That said, here's some scattered feedback (on the currently developed UK list):

- The changes to the Raveners make them more worthwhile, but I'm still unsure if three of them are worth 100 p.ts. If you hadn't added MW to one of their attacks, I would have said that a good-looking price point would have been a swarm of four for 75 p.ts. With MW, maybe just 3 for 75 pt.s/4 for 100 p.ts?
Another thing to consider is being changed from LV to INF: ignoring for a second how overcosted they were, their LV status meant you could run no-AV assault swarms while still keeping your nexus creatures secure. This is now impossible, and if you want to keep your nexus creatures safe, you're forced to have both INF and AVs.

- The changes to the Carnifex are very good, and give it an actual useful role compared to Cerebores.

- I don't see the need to reduce the Brood Cerebores' armor.

- Speaking of which, I'd also consider finding a different name for either the Pincer or the Brood Cerebore: they don't look like variants of the same thing (like Predators or Leman Russes), more like completely different units.

- I really dislike the FF 6+ on the Gargoyles. At 5+ they could be credible FF infantry, now they're relegated to an AA role. This hits Harasser swarms particularly hard.

- Same as above regarding the changes to Zooanthropes and especially Biovores. I really can't follow the reasoning behind it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Thanks for all the feedback Stone Dog! Right off the bat, the main reasons for a lot of the changes and how things look are to keep the list in line with how the units work in E-UK. This achieves two things: Less stats to remember, and a ready source of points to keep the list sane. Other units are taken from the French list. Again, less need to re-invent the wheel.

Stone Dog wrote:
- The changes to the Raveners make them more worthwhile, but I'm still unsure if three of them are worth 100 p.ts. If you hadn't added MW to one of their attacks, I would have said that a good-looking price point would have been a swarm of four for 75 p.ts. With MW, maybe just 3 for 75 pt.s/4 for 100 p.ts?
Another thing to consider is being changed from LV to INF: ignoring for a second how overcosted they were, their LV status meant you could run no-AV assault swarms while still keeping your nexus creatures secure. This is now impossible, and if you want to keep your nexus creatures safe, you're forced to have both INF and AVs.


Good points, I'll keep that in mind. The Raveners and the Ravener Alphas are a brand new unit that hasn't been playtested so will need some attention to get right. They're a lot better than they used to be, but maybe they're still not good enough.

Stone Dog wrote:
- The changes to the Carnifex are very good, and give it an actual useful role compared to Cerebores.
And they can go into Mycetic Spores (Drop Pods). A pretty good unit.

Stone Dog wrote:
- I don't see the need to reduce the Brood Cerebores' armor.

Simply the way these are in the French list. The Brood Cerebore fills a really critical role in the list, and giving it 4+ Reinforced may be too good.

Stone Dog wrote:
- Speaking of which, I'd also consider finding a different name for either the Pincer or the Brood Cerebore: they don't look like variants of the same thing (like Predators or Leman Russes), more like completely different units.

Trying to hold down the number of new names in the list. Maybe I'll rename the Pincer Cerebore to some variant of Haruspex instead. I'll keep that in mind.

Stone Dog wrote:
- I really dislike the FF 6+ on the Gargoyles. At 5+ they could be credible FF infantry, now they're relegated to an AA role. This hits Harasser swarms particularly hard.


It's the way they are in the UK list, and what I've read from the French list is that giving them 5+ FF makes them the best type of Gaunt by far. Could perhaps be balanced out by making them 6 for 75 points or something.

Stone Dog wrote:
- Same as above regarding the changes to Zooanthropes and especially Biovores. I really can't follow the reasoning behind it.
Well, as I write at the top of this post, a lot comes from a desire to stick as close to E-UK stats as possible. There are a lot of stuff to remember in a game like Epic, and keeping most changes as small as possible makes it possible to do more radical stuff where it really matters. Also speeds list development! Not the most satisfying reason perhaps, but in my opinion a necessary one when you are building variant lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.3b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Post updated. Thanks Stone Dog for feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback Stone Dog! Right off the bat, the main reasons for a lot of the changes and how things look are to keep the list in line with how the units work in E-UK.

Following this philosophy too closely would end up with the vanilla UK list, just with a slightly different force organization. I think the french list is interesting precisely because several units have different roles/capabilities (not to say that the force org is not interesting by itself).

Speaking of which, when changing units beyond simple cost fiddling, you have to consider how the changes will affect their capabilities (and so the roles they can cover), and how that will affect the entire list.

If you want examples, think about how the changes to the Exocrine's profile shifted it from ranged heavy armor-hunter (a niche now vacant) to anti-infantry fire support (and now it has to compete in the same niche as the Barbed Hyerodule for the best cost/usefulness ratio).
How the changes to the Biovore now put it in the same competition as above with the Dactylis.
How boosting the number of Gargoyles in a swarm or the changes to the Zooanthrope influence your potential AA coverage and its costs and drawbacks.

Mrdiealot wrote:
Raveners

They're looking way better at 4 for 100 p.ts, but I'll have to think about it more.

Mrdiealot wrote:
Trying to hold down the number of new names in the list. Maybe I'll rename the Pincer Cerebore to some variant of Haruspex instead. I'll keep that in mind.

I like Brood Malefactor. It gives the impression that it's a variant creature from the regular Malefactor (and it is), which is both fluffly and how other variant lists work. To be honest I'd also change the Cerebore to <suffix> Haruspex.


EDIT: I've just realized that you've left the Alpha Raveners as LV. With no AVs or other LVs they're going to get quickly sniped, and you really don't want to lose your nexus creatures with this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Stone Dog wrote:
Following this philosophy too closely would end up with the vanilla UK list, just with a slightly different force organization. I think the french list is interesting precisely because several units have different roles/capabilities (not to say that the force org is not interesting by itself).


Right now I feel pretty confident that the gap between this list as is and the E-UK list is wide enough that it should play and feel like a brand new list, yet narrow enough that people who play that list might want to try out this one.

I agree that there's quite a lot of overlap between the Biovore and the Dactylis yeah, but remember that LV in this list operate much like Inf. That alone makes the units really different. I can see a role for both of them.

I like the French Exocrine, but I can't help to notice that the original list / Hive Fleet Dagon has a lot more MW and TK than the E-UK list. So I can live with that. Think the Exocrine fills a pretty interesting role here as well.

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To be honest I'd also change the Cerebore to <suffix> Haruspex.


Actually, the main reason I don't is because how much better it is in every way compared to the E-UK Haruspex. I have no idea what they were thinking with that unit. Might end up calling it the Pincer Haruspex or something. We'll see.

Quote:
EDIT: I've just realized that you've left the Alpha Raveners as LV. With no AVs or other LVs they're going to get quickly sniped, and you really don't want to lose your nexus creatures with this list.


Well, you can still take both a Trygon and Gaunts. Also, remember that they operate as inf in cover. Lastly, it's the cheapest core activation in the list, so I'd rather not make them too durable. I might make the ordinary Ravener LV as well, but this is a formation that really needs some playtest (the entire list needs some playtest in fact).

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.4b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:43 pm 
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I like all the 1.4 changes, especially those to the Exocrines. It now has a definite role, and being cheaper and stronger than the french version, this might just be what it needed. For the sake of simplicity, another small thing you might consider is merging the Carnifex upgrade into the Bio-attack one (of course keeping the Carnifex as the only drop-poddable one).

Regarding the new force organization, independent swarms are still 0-1 per nexus swarm of any kind, right? You might want to clarify the language a bit with the new primary/secondary split.

Quote:
I agree that there's quite a lot of overlap between the Biovore and the Dactylis yeah, but remember that LV in this list operate much like Inf. That alone makes the units really different. I can see a role for both of them.

My fear is the opposite, i.e. that the Biovore will overshadow the Dactylis. Point per point it's not that much softer, and I can't get over the fact that for just 25 p.ts more you get double the firepower.

Quote:
Well, you can still take both a Trygon and Gaunts. Also, remember that they operate as inf in cover. Lastly, it's the cheapest core activation in the list, so I'd rather not make them too durable.

Shielding LVs with a smallish WE is a lot less secure than having AVs + INF eating up the hits. Their getting cover saves is relevant only in case of fortifications.
Anyway, I wasn't suggesting buffing their resistance, just pointing out that, as it is, they're a choice I'd never going to make, because you really don't want to end up nexus-less. Of course, this is pure personal opinion.

Quote:
I might make the ordinary Ravener LV as well, but this is a formation that really needs some playtest (the entire list needs some playtest in fact).

Indeed. Unfortunately it's difficult for me to get an irl game at this moment, but if you're crazy enough I'm always up for a vassal game.
Also, if you're getting different feedback from somewhere else, I'd be interested in reading it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:10 am 
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Stone Dog wrote:
Quote:
Well, you can still take both a Trygon and Gaunts. Also, remember that they operate as inf in cover. Lastly, it's the cheapest core activation in the list, so I'd rather not make them too durable.

Shielding LVs with a smallish WE is a lot less secure than having AVs + INF eating up the hits. Their getting cover saves is relevant only in case of fortifications.
Anyway, I wasn't suggesting buffing their resistance, just pointing out that, as it is, they're a choice I'd never going to make, because you really don't want to end up nexus-less. Of course, this is pure personal opinion.

Don't forget that war engines can be ignored in shooting allocation if so desired. So you can only shield a LV with a WE by physically blocking line of sight. And of course infantry can only shield it from AP fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.4b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:52 pm 
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That's very correct. I've made some re-evaluations of certain things after realizing that WE might be used to make some formations potentially a lot more durable by using WE to block LOS to Synapse Creatures. E.g. A burrower Swarm with 3 Ravener Alphas and 2 Trygon Drones might work well for this. This is particularly the case if people take their Trygons and Hierdules on large base sizes.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.4b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon E-UK v1.5b NetEA 1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:25 am 
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First off, I'm really perplexed about developing in parallel two slightly different versions of the same list. NetEA and Epic-UK are perfectly compatible, are they not?
Wouldn't be better to develop a single list (taking or adapting the good ideas of both), and then fork it if there's a particular issue with one of the two communities?
I don't know, maybe my confusion stems from not belonging to either community. Of course I'm just perplexed, far from me to tell you what you should do with your stuff.

Anyway, do you have a "preferred" list to receive feedback on? That'd make it easier.
In the meantime I'll stick with the UK list:

    - Great change on the Biovores. It now has a clearer difference to the Dactylis, and that's good. By the by, since they're no longer proper artillery, I'd consider changing the upgrade's name.

    - I also like how you made Gaunt upgrades more manageable but sort of balanced the cost decrease by increasing that of the Nexus core.

    - I don't know about the cost increase for the Hierodules. On paper I'd still consider a "shield" of INF and AVs to me more secure in keeping Nexus LVs secure, just in case my opponent manages to control the battlefield better than me.
    I've never being in the situation of actually doing it or having it done to me on a tabletop though, so I'll defer to practical experience.

    - I've never noticed the Lictor being changed to the UK stat-bloc. I really don't like them not having Sniper, since it's extremely lore-y as an ability for them to have (far more than for Broodlords). On top of that, the list already overflows with CC MW attacks.

    - I don't know about the mandatory Broodlords on the Genestealers. I've seen them being mowed down pretty quickly, and at 175 p.ts I would value two extra bodies more (as they're already pretty nasty if they manage to reach CC).

    By the way, how do you envision using Bio-support units? Embedded in a swarm meant for assault? Or in ranged-focused formations? I'd go with the second, but you have to pay a pretty steep "tax" on them, with the mandatory Nexus core and INF buffer.


PS: is there a reason anymore for Carnifexes to be a separate upgrade from Bio-Attack ?


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon E-UK v1.5b NetEA 1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:10 am 
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Stone Dog wrote:
First off, I'm really perplexed about developing in parallel two slightly different versions of the same list. NetEA and Epic-UK are perfectly compatible, are they not?
Wouldn't be better to develop a single list (taking or adapting the good ideas of both), and then fork it if there's a particular issue with one of the two communities?


There's no really good reason for it, except that there has been a lot of confusion lately in Sweden whether we should go in a "Nordic Epic" direction based on E-UK, or if there's a chance to make the NetEA process work. On top of that, a lot of players have a strong idea of which version of Tyranids is the "proper" Tyranids.

Quote:
Anyway, do you have a "preferred" list to receive feedback on? That'd make it easier.


As things look now, I'll be working more on the NetEA list as that is the one which will be compatible with NetEA approval. But comments on the E-UK list is also valuable, as I'm trying to make these two lists play in a similar way, and some people just straight prefer E-UK stats.

Quote:
    - Great change on the Biovores. It now has a clearer difference to the Dactylis, and that's good. By the by, since they're no longer proper artillery, I'd consider changing the upgrade's name.


Well, they're light artillery now.

Quote:
    - I also like how you made Gaunt upgrades more manageable but sort of balanced the cost decrease by increasing that of the Nexus core.


The Gaunts upgrade was a nightmare before, especially when one considers the monetary cost of Tyranid inf. Tyranids is already a pretty expensive list to play (*insanely* expensive if one lacks the will / skill to convert stuff).

But I also think the list will be more nimble this way, with fewer abusive builds.

Quote:
    - I don't know about the cost increase for the Hierodules. On paper I'd still consider a "shield" of INF and AVs to me more secure in keeping Nexus LVs secure, just in case my opponent manages to control the battlefield better than me.
    I've never being in the situation of actually doing it or having it done to me on a tabletop though, so I'll defer to practical experience.


Yeah, we'll see how bad it is in practice. But the Hierodules isn't only good for blocking LOS. They're also Independent, which is kind of important when it comes to claiming objectives.

Quote:
    - I've never noticed the Lictor being changed to the UK stat-bloc. I really don't like them not having Sniper, since it's extremely lore-y as an ability for them to have (far more than for Broodlords). On top of that, the list already overflows with CC MW attacks.
Like Sniper too, but simplicity takes precedence.

Quote:
    - I don't know about the mandatory Broodlords on the Genestealers. I've seen them being mowed down pretty quickly, and at 175 p.ts I would value two extra bodies more (as they're already pretty nasty if they manage to reach CC).


It's a bit of an experiment. Several reasons for this. One is that I thought the 150 point activation is a bit too good. Another reason is that I wanted to get them under 6 stealers in each formation (since they're sold in packs of 5), but this would make them too cheap... Also, I think that Brood Lords are pretty cool, and putting them in every formation makes them play differently from other 'Nids lists. Lastly, having Inspiring is really helpful when confronting skimmers, the nemesis of Genestealers everywhere.

Quote:
    By the way, how do you envision using Bio-support units? Embedded in a swarm meant for assault? Or in ranged-focused formations? I'd go with the second, but you have to pay a pretty steep "tax" on them, with the mandatory Nexus core and INF buffer.


I'm not sure actually, they've always been the odd units in the list. I really have to playtest them to see what I can make of them.

Quote:
PS: is there a reason anymore for Carnifexes to be a separate upgrade from Bio-Attack ?


Honestly, because that's the way it is in NetEA, F-ERC and E-UK. To me it "feels better" if you will. I think they simply occupy a different conceptual category in the Tyranid army, especially since they can go in Mycetic Spores.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback!

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