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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:40 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Since such strong opposition is being g brought up, I feel like I should mention that the Sunshark Bomber, which is being drawn up, also carries barrage.

Additionally, there is also variety in lists as well as load outs for the Supremacy suits. It by no means requires that someone take barrage when playing Tau. I think one or two units that provide the option for barrage to the list, especially in such a mild and costed manner, gives the list unique flavor that separates from other Tau lists.

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True, and possibly a greater issue as it's more clearly a barrage weapon I would guess.

But i don't really buy the 'you don't have to take it' argument for the supremacy, as it is one of the biggest reasons to use the list. And we don't give marines deathstrikes and then say "if you want to keep the marine theme just don't take deathstrikes". A list is strongly characterised by what it cannot do, as much as what it can.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:14 pm 
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What would be alternative to bareage? Honestly I dont mind it so much in the list but ive never really played 40k or understood it to know whats tau and whats not.

If its not, maybe a AP/AT style Gm?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:37 pm 
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I think it was put forward before but I always envisioned the main weapon with a guided 3x 90 cm MW 4+ shots. It has the draw back of requiring something to be marked to fire at it but when it does get to shoot its going to do some damage!

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:59 pm 
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atension wrote:
I think it was put forward before but I always envisioned the main weapon with a guided 3x 90 cm MW 4+ shots. It has the draw back of requiring something to be marked to fire at it but when it does get to shoot its going to do some damage!

No idea if the MW4+ stats line up but this is my thought exactly - takes care of two issues: the barrage, and the risk-free alpha strike. If you want to do this you have to move/teleport/land some markerlights down first.

One thing though is, the guided missile rule doesnt require a sustain fire order, so this needs to be considered.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:02 pm 
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That loadout looks good, Atension, and fluffy on the role as big guys' hunter the unit has in WH40k so it will also please the people from that game.

kyussinchains wrote:
I get it, your POV is that tau should not have template weapons, full stop, no need to labour the point....

indirect long range fire is hardly alien to the Tau now is it? if you're not raining seeker missiles onto the other half of the table you're either doing it wrong, or seriously missing out.... ;) with combined fire and correctly strung out garrisoned recon formations it is perfectly possible to hit the enemy deployment zone with an alpha strike of "indirect" fire....


Almost there. Not template only, but template, hit the deployment area and Indirect Fire at the same time. Template is alien enough, but if it were just that i probably wouldn't have written even half of what i did about it in this thread along the last months and stopped long ago.

Guided missiles, while they arc sometimes like artillery (i remember that when Tau appeared in WH40k GMs where said on WD battle reports to go between the tress and other obstacles more than going above them), they are fundamentally different, in both fluff and gameplay wise, needing preparation to be used, need another formation to work like Tau things (Coordinated, GM, the formations not being much powerful by themselves like Eldar, etc), no template, barely hits the deployment area even after using the trick you said, being missiles only, AT only, not requiring Sustain, etc. Many differences.

kyussinchains wrote:
I've had it happen to me many times, it just changes the capability, it doesn't add something entirely new to the list, I think it's disingenuous to suggest that it's such a phenomenal, never-seen-before capability that nobody will ever use anything else again....

Of course is not a never-seen capability but one that most races have, but it is not the case for the Tau race.

And as you are mentioning it, its a fact that almost every game out there with this list since the Supremacy appeared had it (i've checked), which is normal given that people has been demanding artillery or something similar on Tau for years because it is a designed weakness of the race.


But I am more interested in understand why you feel this list or Tau in general need artillery, or is it more like you don't see reasons to take it out? There is also from my part that it is only one of the nine weapons options the suit has, so it makes it harder to justify it in my eyes, even if taking the ''GW has one so why not?'' route.

gunslinger007 wrote:
Since such strong opposition is being g brought up, I feel like I should mention that the Sunshark Bomber, which is being drawn up, also carries barrage.


That's true, good point, but while it has barrage and that poses a problem, it is miles away from the Artillery Supremacy because it only has barrage and not the others and its use and how it works completely different.

I wouldn't mind as much seeing it, as in this case, no matter how well costed it is, mosts metas don't use bombers frequently, no matter in which race. There is also the fact that bombers can be avoided, but a DC3 artillery hardly, and other differences, as proven in Biel-Tan with Voidspinners taken A LOT more than Phoenix. But yeah, better keep the list clean and on the fluff and intended race design.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:15 pm 
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One thing though is, the guided missile rule doesnt require a sustain fire order, so this needs to be considered.


Yes and multiple supremacys on overwatch could be exploitable. But an easy fix would be to put the supremacy in the 1/3 section.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
gunslinger007 wrote:
Since such strong opposition is being g brought up, I feel like I should mention that the Sunshark Bomber, which is being drawn up, also carries barrage.


That's true, good point, but while it has barrage and that poses a problem, it is miles away from the Artillery Supremacy because it only has barrage and not the others and its use and how it works completely different.

I wouldn't mind as much seeing it, as in this case, no matter how well costed it is, mosts metas don't use bombers frequently, no matter in which race. There is also the fact that bombers can be avoided, but a DC3 artillery hardly, and other differences, as proven in Biel-Tan with Voidspinners taken A LOT more than Phoenix. But yeah, better keep the list clean and on the fluff and intended race design.


Well I think the sunsharks are a lot more forgivable (also applies to the phoenix bombers) because airplanes can't sustain and the sharks are an order of magnitude more fragile. There's also the possibility for attrition on them, if one dies then the barrage gets a lot worse (and also gets the drawback of at least a -2 to activate next turn). A DC loss or two wont affect the barrage of the supremacy.

The epic UK guys are working on a Vior'la list that I had a look at and they have given weapon options for the supremacy. It's not that common on a 3DC titan in epic, but since it's the only tau titan around I think it's all good. I would be in favor of introducing that as well.

My suggestion would be something like this.

2x twin Smart Missile systems, 30cm, AP4+, IC
2x Tri-Axis Ion Cannon, 60cm, AT4+

And a choice between the three main weapons

Heavy Rail Cannon 90cm, MW3+, TK(D3)
OR Nexus Missile Array 120cm, 3xMW6+, guided (6+ sounds bad, but remember that's MW4+ on a sustain that can hit the opponents zone turn 1, but if found lacking then maybe 5+?)
OR Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver, 45cm, 3BP, indirect fire

I don't think the pulse ordnance should be able to hit the opponents deployment zone without the risk of putting a ML unit up close, hence I suggest 45cm om the latter. It also has considerably lower maximum range than the other two weapons in 40k so that has some precedence (72" vs 120").

I'm in favor of removing the BP. What options do we see for the Multi-driver if no BP? Would 5x AP4+/AT5+ (the equivalent of 3 BP hit stats) be reasonable? Perhaps 4x instead? These attacks are better in a some ways than now, because they would benefit from ML.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:56 pm 
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45cm for Barrage is to short. Make 60 cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Mshrak wrote:
45cm for Barrage is to short. Make 60 cm.

But then you'd be able to hit the enemies deployment zone with an alpha strike turn one. That's quite powerful for an indirect fire weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:56 am 
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Borka wrote:
Mshrak wrote:
45cm for Barrage is to short. Make 60 cm.

But then you'd be able to hit the enemies deployment zone with an alpha strike turn one. That's quite powerful for an indirect fire weapon.


Alpha strike range is too much.

I don't want derail anyone of y'all efforts. I like everything so far. But Tau with barrage is just wrong. Tau are laser guided fishes.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:54 am 
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have you considered making the barrage weapon on the Supremacy Suit to have two modes of fire:
60cm BP3 or
x3 AP6+/AT6+ 60cm Guided Missile

the intent here is to keep the barrage template but limit the range and only allow indirect fire with the use of markerlights


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