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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:03 pm 
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One way to think of the skyray inclusion is that the list has access to devilfish too, which is basically a very similar chassis. So while the skyray may stick out in a straight leg firewarrior formation, it blends in nicely with a mechanized one.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Just saying the same argument can be made for the inclusion of hammerheads in the Fírewarrior formation. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:19 pm 
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It's good to hear what others are thinking!

I definitely agree that designing tournament lists for NetEA lends itself to a certain type of list design and building that isn't what everyone is looking for.

That's a large part of the reason I want to build a "Sandbox Sept" list and include all of the Tau units and stats. It would allow more casual players and organized full access to using all Tau units, and provide a place to test stat lines for new units, like hazard suits, vespids, or Tau tidewall.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Question regarding the FW Shas’O, are Vior’la doing things differently then other septs?
Because as far as I know , a FW after 4 years of service may take a trail of fire and advance from the standard fire warrior rank of “Shas’la” to a veteran “Shas’Ui” at this point they are given a Battlesuit.
After another 4 years they my attempt to advance through yet a harder test to get the next rank, “Shas’Vre”
Same thing 4 years (maybe even piloting a Broadside this time) new test, lucky few reach “Shas’El” and once
More to “Shas’O”. Now the point of all this , is that once you advance from the standard FW rank, you move into
a Battlesuit , and a commander “Shas’O” would always be found in a Crisis Suit. So , having the Shas’O as an upgrade for the Firewarriors I suppose is fine , however does it become I Crisis Unit then? Leading the FW.
Unless that is stated , It would just replace a regular FW, and the list does have him at better Armourvalue, but , at least in my opinion, Having a non Battlesuited Shas’O kind of goes against how Tau does things. I saw in version 2.0 FW had crisis as a possible upgrade. If indeed a Shas’O in a FW squad would (as he should) be put on a crisis unit, adding more through upgrades would make good sense.

Now , I would like to add, no disrespect here or anything,
you are likely aware of Tau lore and it’s military structure

To be fair , I’ve recently gone back into the mini universe , and have chosen Tau as my first project (so I’m an Old noob) , and have been reading up on them a bit. Maybe Vior’la does things differently? or just has to in order to make the list flavorful and unique.I Just felt compelled to wonder about it out loud.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:03 am 
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Hey Cyguns,

You hit the nail on the head. It's done to add some diversity and flavor to the list and contrast it to Third Sphere.

One of the goals for list design is the balance between fluff and competitive play for the tournament lists. So there may be things that don't line up 100% with 40k fluff/codices/novels/etc. It's done to keep lists different and fun to play both with and against.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Thats fine then, as someone put it earlier, Play before fluff.

I wonder though if it could be cool and viable to have the Shas'O become a Crisis unit, even though he would remain in the FW formation? So it would read something like, the Shas'o upgrade replaces one FW unit with an CrisisBattlesuit Shas'o Unit, ?? To Odd?? would it fack up the balance maybe?

I was at least toying with this idea as I was doing the dishes while listening to a Lore Video on Battlesuits, and they where talking about these different command suit models, That got me thinking.

IF the Vior'la list ( a suit heavy list) has the Shas'o be in a FW unit as added flavor and to contrast the'3d'Exp Tau list.
IF he then is allowed to turn into a Crisis suit, a lone Battlesuit in his FW formation, to add to that Uniqueness , Might he then be allowed to choose a special command model suit?? XD.
In the video they talked about a few different types, some made for Urban battle
others with enhanced Mobility at the cost of firepower, or extra protection and so on.
One they mentioned was even equipped with Markerlights for example.

Wouldn't that be cool? and further enhance the Battlesuit speciality of the Vior'la?
if you upgrade to a Shas'O , He becomes a Crisis Command suit, and you get to choose from 2-3 Battlesuit models with slightly different stats, maybe , Markerlights on one (not that I'm sure you'd wanna front up your commander to mark targets XD but I'm just toying ideas here), Tau deflector, reinforced armor or in some way slightly improved
toughness on one battlesuit model etc.

I think it would be cool, BUT cool is one thing, smooth and functional another, maybe it would get a bit messy?

Anyway!!, I intend to try this list out after I've completed my Third expantion army, and I will, when taking the Shas'o, have the model be a Crisis model even if it's only for the looks XD thats just the kind of nerd I am.

Looking forward to V.2.2 great work you and your crew are doin here!!


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Hey Cyguns,

The idea of upgrading the SC to a crisis suit was actually one that I toyed around with early on for the exact reasons you listed - really cool from a fluff perspective and helping to toughen up the model. The issue that was raised, and I apologize but I don't remember who it was - I think its earlier in this thread, was the lack of synergy the suit has with Devilfish that's often transporting the rest of the FWs. The suits 10cm slower movement becomes a "SC tax" on the rest of the formation so I went with slightly buffed stats for a FW who can still mount in a Devilfish to avoid the adverse effects.

I like the ideas for different types of suits. As you've probably noticed, we included a Vior'la crisis suit to reflect a more close range load out compared to the 3rd Sphere list. The 3rd sphere has a command suit, in so much that it gains the extra shot from the experimental weapon. Adding different types of SC suits to choose from is probably a bit too granular for the epic scale, but it's an idea we can toy around with if that's something the community feels we're missing.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:43 am 
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Aaah that’s a good point I suppose. Though you could hand him an “experimental Tau Jetpack” instead of extra firepower , or take away the MW replace with an AP instead and give him 5 or 10cm extra base movement speed. A more mobile command suit in other words. But I shall push the fluffiness no further. All in all , I’m just eager to actually test the list out as is, for myself.

Keep up the gunslinging!


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:30 pm 
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got a game in last week against Steve54 and his Dark Angels (EpicUK)

I took the following:

Fire warriors - (6xFW, 3xDF) supreme commander, skyray
Fire warriors - (6xFW, 3xDF) skyray
Pathfinders
Pathfinders
Pathfinders
Heavy Suits - 3x XV104
Heavy Suits - 3x XV104
Heavy Suits - 3x XV107
Supremacy suit - Railcannon
Razorsharks
Razorsharks

Steve Took (from memory)

Devastators - hunter
Devastators
Terminators - chaplain
Predator annihilators
Scouts
Scouts
Strike Cruiser
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Landing Craft
Nephilims
Nephilims

I'm afraid I didn't take any pics as my phone battery was dying

Steve's orbital strike managed to hit the BTS fire warriors, supremacy suit and XV107 suits, it did a point of damage on the supremacy and R'varnas as well as destroying 2 fire warriors and a devilfish, the deathwind broke the supremacy suit and put more BMs around before the devs retained and sustained fire on the other fire warrior formation, they were then engaged and destroyed by the XV107 suits, the nephilims did another point of damage on the supremacy suit, and it was later finished off by a battlecannon shot from the thunderhawk....I managed to shoot down the landing craft and empty thunderhawk with lucky crits, but the terminators flew through a bunch of flak to wipe out the XV107 suits, they then sat sustaining fire on stuff nearby for two turns. While I was able to get a riptide formation to Steve's blitz, he had dismantled the rest of my forces and I couldn't stop him nabbing blitz and an objective for a 3-1 win

Steve's drop had me on the back foot in this game, and two skyrays did not feel like a sufficient defence against all of his aircraft, my complete failure to pass a single 5+ inv save in this game (literally, failed every one) didn't help either..... time to have a think about a new build for the list I think!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:05 am 
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Thanks Kyuss! Couple follow ups:
What armor saves did you use for the XV107s, 4++ or the proposed 5++?

Howd the output on the Riptides feel? Was thinking of bumping those secondary 5+/6+ shots to 45 cm.

For AA, do you think you'll go back to another FW formation w a skyray? I've found the Riptides help add blastmarkers, but don't do much to shoot things down. But I don't want to run with 3 FW formations.

I've been trying to swap out a 3rd pathfinder for a stealth squad with 2 ghostkeels. Makes for a nice ML formation you can place deep. I'm curious howd that'd fare in the UK meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:31 am 
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I used 4/4/5, I dislike 5/5/5 as it's weaker than 3/5 against AT fire and I think 4/4/6 is perfectly justifiable from a fluff POV while being considerably more palatable than 4/4/5 to my opponents :)

Again I found the riptides very underwhelming, and I too am thinking of stealthsuits, last year Resa F used two formations against me in a tournament, he was able to use them to markerlight and draw crossfires against most of my army, it was highly effective, I can see adding ghostkeels would make them a threat in their own right as well, I need to get my stealthsuits based up!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 10:35 am 
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Hi, I wanted to share some experiences from my games the last weekend.

We played minigeddon and my list was:
Fire warriors with devilfishes 225
Pathfinders with devilfishes 200
Heavy battle suits (R'varna) 350
Supremacy (TK version) 225

I won against Squats and knights, both games basically because, even if R'varnas didnt actually kill anything at all while firing, I got assaulted and I saved most of the damage while damaging the enemy units, then winning the battle roll thanks to my advantage due to kill difference.
About that I really like that this list trades long range for better assaults.

I played them with 4+/4+/5+ saving roll, and both of my opponent felt like I was cheating, even if they admitted R'varnas arent specially good in anything other than saving.

I think 3+/5+ has already setted as the saving roll for Tau Heavy battlesuits, and even Supremacy and Stormsurge have it, what's the reason for R'varna being different?
I would suggest dropping their saving to 3+/5+ and buffing their shooting to AP3+/AT4+ or giving the AP shot disrupt.

Other than that, I saw Ethereals dont have Inspiring in this list, but they have in the regular Tau list, is this a intended change or is it a mistake?
Also, fire blade upgrade mentions "50 points each", does this mean you can take up to 4 fireblades to abuse inspiring? 450 points for 8 fire warriors with 4 devilfishes and 3 fireblades sounds very fun to me, I hope I'm not missreading or that it's not a typo.

About Riptides, they do feel a little underwhelming. Them being the 30cm range battlesuits feels right, but their AP5+/AT6+ shots are Ork tier.

Lastly, on the previous discussion on hammerheads, I'm fine with them being out of the army, but a hammerhead upgrade for the fire warrior cadre might be useful too.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 11:03 am 
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CarlixTomix wrote:
I played them with 4+/4+/5+ saving roll, and both of my opponent felt like I was cheating, even if they admitted R'varnas arent specially good in anything other than saving.


I had a formation destroy a reaver titan in a crossfire with a markerlit sustain-fire action.... I've always found their shooting to be highly effective
Quote:
I think 3+/5+ has already setted as the saving roll for Tau Heavy battlesuits, and even Supremacy and Stormsurge have it, what's the reason for R'varna being different?


from the fluff I've read, the R'Varna is meant to sacrifice speed and mobility for considerably heavier armour than the riptide, the 4+ RA was the armour I settled on when I drafted the first EUK Vior'la list which this version borrows from, they also lose their jetpacks and have their move dropped to 20cm to compensate, I do agree that having the 5+ deflector shield on top makes them frustrating and I think dropping to a token inv save is a good step

Quote:
I would suggest dropping their saving to 3+/5+ and buffing their shooting to AP3+/AT4+ or giving the AP shot disrupt.

I tested AT4+ on the original list and it was just so potent with markerlights, it needed toning down a bit

Quote:
Other than that, I saw Ethereals dont have Inspiring in this list, but they have in the regular Tau list, is this a intended change or is it a mistake?


Given that the fireblade character has it and is not limited like the ethereal, I think double-inspiring is a touch too far
Quote:
Also, fire blade upgrade mentions "50 points each", does this mean you can take up to 4 fireblades to abuse inspiring? 450 points for 8 fire warriors with 4 devilfishes and 3 fireblades sounds very fun to me, I hope I'm not missreading or that it's not a typo.


Probably a typo, although multiple upgrades of the same type may not be taken, and where it is, there is usually a line giving the options, so in this case you can only take a single one
Quote:
About Riptides, they do feel a little underwhelming. Them being the 30cm range battlesuits feels right, but their AP5+/AT6+ shots are Ork tier.


I find the range to be the biggest problem as it doesn't syngergise well with the macro shot

Quote:
Lastly, on the previous discussion on hammerheads, I'm fine with them being out of the army, but a hammerhead upgrade for the fire warrior cadre might be useful too.


I doubt it would be used often, and does the list really *need* hammerheads or is that just from a sense that Tau should have hammerheads *somewhere*? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:44 pm 
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@CarlixTomix
Thanks for taking the list out! Glad you're enjoying the adjusted play style. I'll try a d weight in a few points that Kyuss already got to.

R'varna armor - agreed this armor has been an issue across several play groups. The Tau shield is getting reduced to 6+. I still want them to be the suit that can absorb hits, per their fluff, but they need to be rolled back. Given their defensive design, I don't think an up gunning is necessary. That AP3 can already chew into formations. And that AT5 gets scarier with marker lights applied.

Ethereal - I checked my copies and dont see them with Inspiring here or the Tournament Pack. Can you point out where you see a list with Inspiring so I can track the change and reconcil the lists?

Riptides - the secondary shots are getting moved up to 45cm, but staying at 5/6. The Riptide is supposed to be the jack of all trades heavy suit, so I dont want to increase its shooting to make it the obvious pick. Especially with an AA shot. However, I think this really plays to the Tau style of combined tactics and using Marker lights to get the most out of your units instead of just straight up good shooting like Eldar. I'm hoping the range increase will allow for more sustaining as well, further dropping the hit roles.

The 2.2 list will be out in a couple days and will have these changes and a few others.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:04 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
from the fluff I've read, the R'Varna is meant to sacrifice speed and mobility for considerably heavier armour than the riptide, the 4+ RA was the armour I settled on when I drafted the first EUK Vior'la list which this version borrows from, they also lose their jetpacks and have their move dropped to 20cm to compensate, I do agree that having the 5+ deflector shield on top makes them frustrating and I think dropping to a token inv save is a good step

I tested AT4+ on the original list and it was just so potent with markerlights, it needed toning down a bit

I guess it makes sense. I'll try them with 4+/4+/6+ as gunslinger sugested.

kyussinchains wrote:
doubt it would be used often, and does the list really *need* hammerheads or is that just from a sense that Tau should have hammerheads *somewhere*? :)

It's not that I want them in the list because of thematic reasons. In fact, I'm fine with them not existing at all in this list, but I like versatility, and being able to add long range weapons to a fire warrior cadre could be useful.
For example, in my last game I added a BST formation that consisted of 8 fire warriors, 4 devilfishes and 1 skyray, which costed 375 points specifically so I could risk my Heavy Battlesuits more without being scared of giving my opponent a point.

Having that formation with a better long range shot could be useful.

gunslinger007 wrote:
Ethereal - I checked my copies and dont see them with Inspiring here or the Tournament Pack. Can you point out where you see a list with Inspiring so I can track the change and reconcil the lists?

I doublechecked and it seems Inspiring Ethereals were only a thing in Vior'la Tau Development v1.9 (http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 23&t=24822), so I guess that was something that got discarded.

gunslinger007 wrote:
Riptides - the secondary shots are getting moved up to 45cm, but staying at 5/6. The Riptide is supposed to be the jack of all trades heavy suit, so I dont want to increase its shooting to make it the obvious pick. Especially with an AA shot. However, I think this really plays to the Tau style of combined tactics and using Marker lights to get the most out of your units instead of just straight up good shooting like Eldar. I'm hoping the range increase will allow for more sustaining as well, further dropping the hit roles.

Sounds fair. It would be a bad thing if one of the suits became the obvious choice and outclassed the others.


I played the last Saturday with this list:

Fire warriors cadre (with devilfishes) + sky + 2 fire warriors and a devilfish -> 375
Fire warriors cadre (with devilfishes) 225
Pathfinders 200
Pathfinders 200

2 Yvarha + 1 riptide 350
2 Yvarha + 1 riptide 350
2 Yvarha + 1 riptide 350
Supremacy (BP version) 275
Stealth group + 2 Ghostkeels 275

Razorsharks 200
Razorsharks 200

(3000 points)

I played against AMTL and I got a humiliating defeat, and against Eldar (I'm not sure which list it was) and I won, but sadly I didn't write any battle reports.

I got honestly surprised by the Supremacy. I wasn't expecting it to be anything other than an annoyance for my opponent, giving away blast markers from long range, but it managed to get enough damage to make it worth taking. It's also useful for waiting enemy activations out and for "chasing" broken non-fearless enemy formations to kill them.

About the Ghostkeels, I think bringing one or two formations is a great idea, both as a missdirection so Heavy Battlesuits survive for a bit longer and manage to get closer to the key enemy formations, and as a support formation which brings markerlight plus easy crossfire. I will bring them in every single game, no doubt.

I find Yvarha fun, as I really like the "big guns at short range" theme. I bring them with one Riptide for them to be able to shoot from far away at least to get some blast markers on an enemy formation.
I'm still unsure on how useful they are, and will try to keep using them until I can decide.

The non-WE BST was a great idea, as Heavy battlesuits come with a big target in their heads, and they tend to break after one or two TK shots (and then die to Blast markers from aircraft due to not being fearless).

Razorsharks feel really useful as AA defense, so even if I only had one Skyray I still didn't feel weak to air (Riptides helped there too), and I would totally bring three formations if I had them.
Firing enemy infantry is also a choice, but it's removing enemy aircraft what they are good at.

I don't like upgrading my Pathfinders to include tetras, as I prefer having more activations, but I will try it in the future, since bulkier markerlight formations can be very useful.

gunslinger007 wrote:
The 2.2 list will be out in a couple days and will have these changes and a few others.

Thanks! Keep on the good work with the list!
I hope I can write a battle report soon to help you getting this list approved.


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