Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

The Manta

 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:50 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Thanks for your continued input to the discussion

So far from what I see is
Most of us, but not all, agree that the Manta is a sub par choice.

Suggestions for tweeks/improvements are

Better shooting
Lowered price
Access to ”command bridge” [ie characters]
coordinate fire
Self planetfall

I have tried it now at 575 pts with de-twin linked rail Guns. It did kill a DC8 Hydraphant(?), dagon list, together with a recon and a HH fusion gun formation. Tyranids is a good match up for it with it being a skimmer so it was pretty safe. It felt quite powerful. And it could potentially kill a medium sized titan all by it slef now. I believe the 575 pts and extra rail cannon might have been overdoing it. My suggestion would be 625 or perhaps 600.

On command bridge

I believe giving it access to the shas’el is bad. That just becomes a cheap way to get leader.
+100 pts (the current upgrades true cost) for the Shas’o
And/or
+50 pts for an ethreal seems fitting for leader to come at a higher pricetag.

The coordinate fire I also see as a natural inclusion

Self planetfall would make it more attractive. Does anyone know why it was removed?

They all have merit, but if all are applied then it’s perhaps a considerable change that I think requires thorough testing.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 2:48 am
Posts: 661
Location: NJ, USA
I would recommend more play testing before reverting to increasing the points on the Manta again. As you've said, the Nids make for a good match up for the Manta. As someone who's played both, Nids struggle against Titans with higher DC. As you've seen, that leads to it the feeling that the Manta can move more freely and select it's target with ease.

On the other side, mfolias had a game last weekend against Guard where a Deathstrikes popped the Manta before it activated. There's always going to be outlier games in both directions and I'd suggest a larger sample pool of games to avoid knee jerk reactions to swing games.

This proposal has been "out in the wild" for only a couple of weeks and I think there's been three play tests for it and one was against a developmental list? I apologize if I missed one. But I think its important to test those changes against some more lists, and a few of the longer tried and true lists, ie: Biel Tan, Space Marines, Black Legion.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

_________________
Grey Knights AC: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 30&t=33211

Steel Legion/ Knights/ Wolves/ Tau/ Death Guard/ Nids/ Grey Knights/ Eldar/ Ghaz' Horde/ AMTL

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Lancaster, PA
gunslinger007 wrote:
I would recommend more play testing before reverting to increasing the points on the Manta again. As you've said, the Nids make for a good match up for the Manta. As someone who's played both, Nids struggle against Titans with higher DC. As you've seen, that leads to it the feeling that the Manta can move more freely and select it's target with ease.

On the other side, mfolias had a game last weekend against Guard where a Deathstrikes popped the Manta before it activated. There's always going to be outlier games in both directions and I'd suggest a larger sample pool of games to avoid knee jerk reactions to swing games.

This proposal has been "out in the wild" for only a couple of weeks and I think there's been three play tests for it and one was against a developmental list? I apologize if I missed one. But I think its important to test those changes against some more lists, and a few of the longer tried and true lists, ie: Biel Tan, Space Marines, Black Legion.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


exactly

_________________
mattie
http://maashes.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5152
Location: Bristol
Borka wrote:
On command bridge

I believe giving it access to the shas’el is bad. That just becomes a cheap way to get leader.
+100 pts (the current upgrades true cost) for the Shas’o
And/or
+50 pts for an ethreal seems more fitting and they come at a higher pricetag.

The coordinate fire I also see as a natural inclusion

100 sounds fine to test if you decide to and I'd keep that the only option.
I agree - no Shas'el for it.
I know a Manta can carry an Ethereal but I wouldn't represent this as an option in the Epic list as the advantage an Ethereal bring is fearless to the formation it joins and the Manta is already fearless.

As to points, I think 75 is too aggressive a reduction and I'd suggest 50 less. Or no reduction whatsoever should you go with the upgraded main gun you mentored.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Lancaster, PA
GlynG wrote:
Borka wrote:
On command bridge

I believe giving it access to the shas’el is bad. That just becomes a cheap way to get leader.
+100 pts (the current upgrades true cost) for the Shas’o
And/or
+50 pts for an ethreal seems more fitting and they come at a higher pricetag.

The coordinate fire I also see as a natural inclusion

100 sounds fine to test if you decide to and I'd keep that the only option.
I agree - no Shas'el for it.
I know a Manta can carry an Ethereal but I wouldn't represent this as an option in the Epic list as the advantage an Ethereal bring is fearless to the formation it joins and the Manta is already fearless.

As to points, I think 75 is too aggressive a reduction and I'd suggest 50 less. Or no reduction whatsoever should you go with the upgraded main gun you mentored.


50 points off. It is still wicked expensive. Upgrades only make it more expensive and not one of the upgrades adds to its tactical threat.

75 points off at least gives you some option down the road to add value to something to earn back the points that are the turd of the Manta.

Now I only have two test games with it at 75 less. One in which death strikes smoked that beast straight out of the gate. With the TO's approval, she will come out one last time for AdeptiCon. And then I am going to shelve it. The Manta does not work at the points.

Anyone willing or have the opportunity to test the 50 at a major tourney? Or bang in any basement games?

_________________
mattie
http://maashes.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:30 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2385
Location: UK
I will see what I can do with it.

Borka what do you mean about the true cost of the shas o? The shas o is 75 for the re roll and extra weapon. The shas el at 25 points is paying for the coordinated fire and leader. So if you don't give it leader (and not sure it really needs it) what are you proposing you should get for your 100 points? Is this to be combined with coordinated fire in a single command bridge upgrade? I really think 100 points is too much just for a re roll considering how expensive the unit is already. It's not even a brilliant BTS.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:25 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Kyrt wrote:
I will see what I can do with it.

Borka what do you mean about the true cost of the shas o?

I mean it replaces the Shas'el which I think is a 25 pts upgrade. So the way I see it in reality its cost it 25 + 75 points.

Kyrt wrote:
The shas o is 75 for the re roll and extra weapon. The shas el at 25 points is paying for the coordinated fire and leader. So if you don't give it leader (and not sure it really needs it) what are you proposing you should get for your 100 points? Is this to be combined with coordinated fire in a single command bridge upgrade? I really think 100 points is too much just for a re roll considering how expensive the unit is already. It's not even a brilliant BTS.

I'm not sure I follow. the Shas'o does give it Leader as well. I don’t think that should be removed.

The shooting attack I think is inconsequential for the Manta. What we're really after and pay for in any army when we take a supreme commander is the reroll, it's the essential thing. So I guess with the manta the first 25 pts are for leader and then 75 pts for the reroll. But also you pay for the ability to have a your Supreme commander in a unit that is hard to kill and on top of that has fearless. Yes it not as durable as a reaver or phantom titan, but a DC8 fearless unit with triple 5+ save will for most armies take considerable effort to kill (if you don't have deathstrikes that is). That's something we need to take into consideration.

The cost of the formation may be very expensive, but it makes no difference for the army as a whole as you're paying a 100 points for your SC anyways. It's up to the player were they want to put him.

Tau, IG, BL, DE and Marines all pay 100 points for supreme commanders in easy to kill infantry units. I can't see the justification for it to be cheaper in a place were it's considerably harder to kill.

GlynG wrote:
I know a Manta can carry an Ethereal but I wouldn't represent this as an option in the Epic list as the advantage an Ethereal bring is fearless to the formation it joins and the Manta is already fearless.

I agree definitely a sub par choice, and that's also why I see it as an unproblematic inclusion. It will basically be taken for fluff reasons or as cheaper way than a Shas'o to make one Manta BTS if you bring two or to get leader.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:35 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Concerning price. I tried looking around to see what kind of titan there are to compared to. The closest match (for firepower) I could find was a reaver armed with a turbo laser destructor (4x AP5+/AT3+) and two volcano cannons (2+ TKd3). That ways in at 675 points, but of course it's a totally different list.

The reaver is more resilient with 4+ RA, 4 Shields and the ability to hide in and behind cover, but lacks its own AA like the manta has.

Hard to say what the differences are worth between lists. Let's keep testing it at 575. 600 with self planet fall perhaps?
In either case please test it with coordinate fire. That's one thing I think we all agree on should have been included.

It does stick out though as no other titan/titan equivalent, outside of the titan legion list, can have 2x TKD3 attack (except for arguably the cyclops with it's TKD6). Should that be its/tau's thing? Brainstorming here, an alternative is keeping one shooting attack, but slightly better at MW2+, TK(D3+1).
On average that does about the same amount of damage as the 2x 3+ TK(D3) when shooting at no modifier or with -1 or -2 to hit. It's slightly worse if the manta has +1 or +2 to hit. It would give a more stable damage result and get rid of the outliers were on a double hit (both cannons) you can make 5 or 6 TK hits. Thoughts?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2385
Location: UK
Borka wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
I will see what I can do with it.

Borka what do you mean about the true cost of the shas o?

I mean it replaces the Shas'el which I think is a 25 pts upgrade. So the way I see it in reality its cost it 25 + 75 points.

Kyrt wrote:
The shas o is 75 for the re roll and extra weapon. The shas el at 25 points is paying for the coordinated fire and leader. So if you don't give it leader (and not sure it really needs it) what are you proposing you should get for your 100 points? Is this to be combined with coordinated fire in a single command bridge upgrade? I really think 100 points is too much just for a re roll considering how expensive the unit is already. It's not even a brilliant BTS.

I'm not sure I follow. the Shas'o does give it Leader as well. I don’t think that should be removed.

The shooting attack I think is inconsequential for the Manta. What we're really after and pay for in any army when we take a supreme commander is the reroll, it's the essential thing. So I guess with the manta the first 25 pts are for leader and then 75 pts for the reroll. But also you pay for the ability to have a your Supreme commander in a unit that is hard to kill and on top of that has fearless. Yes it not as durable as a reaver or phantom titan, but a DC8 fearless unit with triple 5+ save will for most armies take considerable effort to kill (if you don't have deathstrikes that is). That's something we need to take into consideration.

The cost of the formation may be very expensive, but it makes no difference for the army as a whole as you're paying a 100 points for your SC anyways. It's up to the player were they want to put him.

Tau, IG, BL, DE and Marines all pay 100 points for supreme commanders in easy to kill infantry units. I can't see the justification for it to be cheaper in a place were it's considerably harder to kill.

GlynG wrote:
I know a Manta can carry an Ethereal but I wouldn't represent this as an option in the Epic list as the advantage an Ethereal bring is fearless to the formation it joins and the Manta is already fearless.

I agree definitely a sub par choice, and that's also why I see it as an unproblematic inclusion. It will basically be taken for fluff reasons or as cheaper way than a Shas'o to make one Manta BTS if you bring two or to get leader.


Don't think I am explaining properly. A shas'el costs 25 points (or did before it was made free). It has coordinated fire and leader. The shas'o adds the reroll (and another weapon which has a non-zero value but let's ignore for now). So the reroll does not cost 100, it costs 75 or less. This is the same with some other races you mention - a marine reroll does not cost 100, it costs 50 as this is the cost to upgrade a captain (macro, commander, double leader). Dark eldar pay 50 for a reroll and inspiring. The eldar autarch is 50 points to gain reroll, commander, leader, macro and an invuln save. The most expensive at 100 is IG, which adds to a commander: leader, reroll, better stats and macro. So 100 is the absolute maximum an army might pay to get a unit with a reroll, but they all have other abilities too.

Now if you are talking about giving the manta all three abilities - leader, coordinated fire and a reroll then maybe it is worth 100, but a) it isn't clear whether this is the proposal or not, and b) this isn't actually the choice that a player makes. They choose whether to upgrade a 650 point manta for 100 points, or to upgrade a 250 point crisis formation for 75 points. If I also had to pay more for coordinated fire I think it is too much.

To be honest leader on a war engine seems strange to me also, I would rather lose it to keep the cost down.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:56 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Ok I guess we look at it a bit different, but I see what you mean about the part of the price for the supreme commander reroll in for instance the marine list is the 50 points difference between it and a regular marine character.

But isn't, by that logic, 100 points right for the shas'o? 75 pts for the reroll (the same price in a crisis formation) and 25 points for the leader ability.

That aside, don't you think paying a premium for having one of the most survivable supreme commanders in the game is reasonable?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Manta
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2385
Location: UK
Borka wrote:
Ok I guess we look at it a bit different, but I see what you mean about the part of the price for the supreme commander reroll in for instance the marine list is the 50 points difference between it and a regular marine character.

But isn't, by that logic, 100 points right for the shas'o? 75 pts for the reroll (the same price in a crisis formation) and 25 points for the leader ability.

That aside, don't you think paying a premium for having one of the most survivable supreme commanders in the game is reasonable?
If you get coordinated fire as well then yes 100 would make sense.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net