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[Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2

 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:32 pm 
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Once more on Black Guardians:

Can anybody tell me the reason why they include a second Farseer by default? I mean it?s pretty useless gamewise - "Farsight" and "Commander" are already there and you probably won?t make it into close combat very often. Instead the second Farseer unit will most often have to use its FF-value which is even worse than that of normal Guardians. At least another unit with a 4+ save.  :glare:

Does the fluff specificly state that Black Guardians are accompanied by more Farseers/Warlocks than their regular counterparts? I think not! So I would opt for ditching it and reducing basic points costs for the BG-Host to 175 pts. That seems a fair trade for getting 1+ initiative, still won?t make black status a mandatory choice, not least because one would create another unit with points costs in multiples of 25. Please just think about it!


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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:15 pm 
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Ulthwe is supposed to make more extensive use of warlocks and farseers, so there are more in proportion to the Guardians.  It's definitely not useless if one of them is killed.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:17 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 09 2008,09:15)
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Ulthwe is supposed to make more extensive use of warlocks and farseers, so there are more in proportion to the Guardians. ?It's definitely not useless if one of them is killed.

Agreed.  It also allows you to be more agressive with the formation as you can place one Farseer stand in BTB contact and use that MW attack and keep the other one back as a reserve.  You could also space them on either side of the formation so you get better potential placing of your avatar.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:45 am 
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(Moscovian @ Jun. 09 2008,16:17)
QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Jun. 09 2008,09:15)
QUOTE
Ulthwe is supposed to make more extensive use of warlocks and farseers, so there are more in proportion to the Guardians. ?It's definitely not useless if one of them is killed.

Agreed. ?It also allows you to be more agressive with the formation as you can place one Farseer stand in BTB contact and use that MW attack and keep the other one back as a reserve. ?You could also space them on either side of the formation so you get better potential placing of your avatar.

O.K., seem to be valid points I didn?t think of yet. The question is, wether this is worth +50 pts. At the moment the only Black Guardian setup which seems to be a good trade is mounting them in Wave Serpents adding Vypers and - if at all taken - the Seer Council which could then be used to full effect.  

Sadly those War Walkers always get picked of by AT fire. Using them in dedicated formations which can also garrison - and by now beginn the game on overwatch  :alien:   makes much more sense in my opinion. Does anybody use footslogging Black Guardians at all?


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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:36 pm 
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(Fenvarien @ Jun. 11 2008,11:45)
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The question is, wether this is worth +50 pts.

I was always a fan of having the free upgrade of 1 Black Guardian per 3 Guardian formations, however this was perceived as too good by others.

The main reason why BL cost more is the benefit of the 1+ Initiative rating for the formation. This makes a big difference as a BG formation without BM can retain automatically due to the presence of a farseer.

No other force has this ability.

So what would play for this ability? ?:p

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:39 pm 
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(Fenvarien @ Jun. 11 2008,11:45)
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Does anybody use footslogging Black Guardians at all?

I used to when Wraith upgrades were allowed, nothing like a fully tooled up BG formation with guard and lords leading the way out of a Stormserpents portal.

Nowerdays I have dropped the BG and just play with guardians whilst playing with a Supreme Commander to give me the re-roll if they fail their 2+ initiative test.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:11 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Jun. 11 2008,12:39)
QUOTE

(Fenvarien @ Jun. 11 2008,11:45)
QUOTE
Does anybody use footslogging Black Guardians at all?

I used to when Wraith upgrades were allowed, nothing like a fully tooled up BG formation with guard and lords leading the way out of a Stormserpents portal.

Nowerdays I have dropped the BG and just play with guardians whilst playing with a Supreme Commander to give me the re-roll if they fail their 2+ initiative test.

Very interesting! Same with me, no Black Guardians in my standard 3k Ulthw? list. But those mechanised BG?s would be the first reinforcement when expanding to let?s say 3500 pts.

By the way, where do you place your Seer Council?


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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:29 pm 
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In a standard Guardian host with additional Support Platforms. These will sit in the best cover available and then look to claim Eldar Blitz on third turn.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:33 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Jun. 11 2008,16:29)
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In a standard Guardian host with additional Support Platforms. These will sit in the best cover available and then look to claim Eldar Blitz on third turn.

Looks like we use pretty common tactics.  :D

I regularly attach it to a Guardian host with two Heavy Weapon Platforms but those Support Platforms are indeed a very nice addition boosting numbers and adding some MW firepower. Just don?t know where to take the points from.

Here?s the list:

Avatar                                
Wraithgate    
             
Guardian Warhost +Wraithguard + Wraithlords
Guardian Warhost (incl. Seer Council and 2 Platforms)
Guardian Warhost (incl. 2 Platforms)

Storm Serpent
Falcons (incl. 2 Fire Storms)
Falcons (incl. 2 Fire Storms)
Windriders (incl. 2 Vypers)
Nightspinners
Rangers

Revenants
Vampire Raider


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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:58 am 
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From the looks of things the points come from the Revenants

Here is the last list that I was playing with:

Avatar
Wraithgate

Eldar Guardian Warhost + Wraithguard (3) + Wraithlords (3) BTS
Eldar Guardian Warhost + Wraithguard (2) + Wraithlords (3)
Eldar Guardian Warhost
Eldar Guardian Warhost + Seer Council incl Hvy Wea Platforms (3) & Support Weapons (3)
EoV - Storm Serpent
EoV - Storm Serpent
Sword of Vaul Falcons + Firestorm (1)
Shield of Vaul - Firestorms (3)
Shield of Vaul - Night Spinners (3)
Aspect Warrior Troupe - Swooping Hawks
Vampire Raider
Wraithship

I found that only playing 1 Stormserpent restricted me, especially when it seemed to get shot up before I could activate the portal. The Wraithship is in due to a spot by TRC as to the cost and size of the barrage it drops. Also this is an army that can compete with Marines for the turn a spacecraft arrives possibly mucking up a Drop army.

Everything else is pretty obvious.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:44 pm 
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I'd like to put in the idea that the Shields of Vaul formation is unbalanced.  It makes it possible to spam the board with Firestorms that are just about worth their points as ground units even before considering their rather extreme AA abilities.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:48 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 12 2008,13:44)
QUOTE
I'd like to put in the idea that the Shields of Vaul formation is unbalanced. ?It makes it possible to spam the board with Firestorms that are just about worth their points as ground units even before considering their rather extreme AA abilities.

I agree, however this list was put together under the current version 3.2.

I would be happy to convert back to Falcon & Fire Prism Troupes.

Time to revise the list me thinks.

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:48 pm 
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Whoa, make sure you're both refering to the same thing...

Neal was suggesting that the Shields of Vaul formation should revert back to the Night Spinner-only formation in all of these craftworld lists. That's because having the option of 3 firestorms for 175 running around anywhere on the board can be abused (mainly by taking multiples of the formation).

The Swords of Vaul formation is somewhat less contriversial (though I get the feeling Neal has problems with it, too, though for different reasons - perhaps unrelated to game play). Of course, it depends on the stats of the fire prism changing from uber-AA tank to tank-destroyer.

I'm still hoping we keep the adjusted fire prism stats and keeping the Swords of Vaul formation. That's because otherwise, a grav-tank-themed list (like Yme-Loc) would be very boring, having only one pseudo-main battle tank to choose from instead of two.






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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:07 pm 
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We are :) but sometimes we can appear to be approaching the conversation from different sides of the plate ?:confuse:

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 Post subject: [Ulthwé] Updated, v3.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:39 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Jun. 12 2008,14:48)
QUOTE

(nealhunt @ Jun. 12 2008,13:44)
QUOTE
I'd like to put in the idea that the Shields of Vaul formation is unbalanced. ?It makes it possible to spam the board with Firestorms that are just about worth their points as ground units even before considering their rather extreme AA abilities.

I agree, however this list was put together under the current version 3.2.

I would be happy to convert back to Falcon & Fire Prism Troupes.

Time to revise the list me thinks.

Signed! Fire Storms should be limited to Falcon Troupes.

What about keeping the old Fire Prism Troupe using the new stats. The result would be a very fragile (no more Spirit Stones!) but also really eldarish formation. 175pts for three (like Nightspinners) - taking the formations fragility into account - should be about right. I think it would be a lot of fun to use them - much more like tank destroyers instead of main battle tanks.


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