Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

[NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list

 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
Hmm - the 5cm dismount from the vampire is tricky isn't it - even when you use the WE to "barge your way into the enemy formation. I opted for an All HB formation in Wave Serpents, both because of the greater control over the engagement, but also because you are better off with the troops inside the WS just prior to the attack (better armour save and longer reach) - but being CC specialists, they still tend to end up in support fire range unless employed on a flank - so ultimately vulnerable and thus tending to be a one shot wonder

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:58 pm
Posts: 598
Just stick to a minimum, most of the changes suggested are reaonable but at the same time arnt really needed.

I personally think the 5-6 Sword of Vaul formation should be kept for more vehicle heavy eldar lists and doesnt have a place in Biel-Tan.

Banshee's at 2+ - Wont really make much difference in terms of tournament play. Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, Fire Dragons and Swooping hawks are still better choices. (Not saying dont change - just it will be a bit of a change to nothing)

I personally would up the cost of Wraithguard and Wraithlords to 200 for 3 (Dont think the 2-3 is needed - or the change to 3+ armour save, 4+ RA probably makes more sense with their toughness 6 in 40K), toughness should be at a premium in eldar armies and even at 200pts these guys are great.

Jetbikes to 5+ Save, its not really needed with the loss of spirit stones meaning jetbikes will almost always be activating on 3 or 4+. But it doesnt matter either and actually gives a reason to include the odd vyper for a better save.

Warp Spiders Lose Scout - Makes sense

Fire Prisms - Leave as a three strong fragile troupe with these stats and its interesting, although again not really required. Include this with the Sword of Vaul formation and were heading for problems, most obvious of which is taking the focus away from a Biel-Tan list.

Avatar - This isn't required where is the big deal in writting a basic avatar stat and using it for other lists.

Wave Serpents - No real problems with this, but again it really isnt required.

_________________
Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Whatever biggles says :)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 36

(Chroma @ May 09 2008,19:53)
QUOTE
1. Recommended changes

Units

Fire Prisms ? Prism Cannon, 60cm, AP4+/AT2+, Lance

Jetbikes ? Armour 5+

Warp Spiders ? lose scouts

Army List

Guardian Warhost ? add 2-3 Wraithguard +50 points each


2. Suggested changes

Units

Avatar ? remove Court of the Young King from ?Weapons? and create as a character unit

Howling Banshees - CC2+

Wave Serpents ? add Heavy Weapon Platform to transport options

Wraithguard ? Save 3+, lose reinforced armour

Army List

Swords of Vaul Troupe - Five or six Falcons for 50 points each. ?
Up to two Falcons may be replaced with Fire Storms at no additional cost.
In addition, any number of Falcons may be upgraded to Fire Prisms for +15 points each.

Yep, most of those recommended changes seem right.  :) Good work!

The only thing I really don?t like is the reduction of the jetbikes save. They still suffer a lot from loosing spirit stones and those rules changes regarding support fire.  

Another thing which I think one should talk about here are Scorpion-EoV?s, if not EoV?s in general. At the moment there is simply not much reason to take more then one - regardless which type - per formation. So what about some sort of discount for taking more (450 for two? 600 for three?)? Do you really think Scorpions are worth taking after the loss of "pulse" at 250pts.? Maybee a range increase or the de-linking of the pulsars, giving it 2x2 MW3+, would solve that.

Just my 2 Cents!  :;):

Best Regards

Fenvarien


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1596
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

(Fenvarien @ May 30 2008,09:34)
QUOTE
Another thing which I think one should talk about here are Scorpion-EoV?s, if not EoV?s in general. At the moment there is simply not much reason to take more then one - regardless which type - per formation...

Well, the Cobra and Void Spinner make sense in pairs and the Void Spinner makes sense in 3s, but I agree with you that Scorpions, and certainly storm serpents are more useful as singly activating formations when taken in homogeneous formations. There may be value, though, in taking mix and match combinations, like 2 cobras and a scorpion, or 2 cobras and a storm serpent. Probably only in high point value games though.

I wouldn't be against a discount for multiples (or just limiting the formation to 1-2 EoVs instead of 1-3), but it might be easier to worry about it the next go around of the review.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362
As a frequent opponent of the Eldar I have no problem with any of the proposed changes.

Believe it or not I actually played s game against Moscovian using his DE. All I can say is is wow are those Warpspiders good enough by themselves.

_________________
Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6396
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Yes, sadly Warpspiders are are still disgusting and I can't imagine removing Scout as being that much of a mitigator.  I really don't know what to do with them though other than grumble about their lack of a downside.

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9682
Location: Boston, MA, USA

(Moscovian @ Jun. 02 2008,17:08)
QUOTE
Yes, sadly Warpspiders are are still disgusting and I can't imagine removing Scout as being that much of a mitigator. ?I really don't know what to do with them though other than grumble about their lack of a downside.

At least without scouts you can't spread them out all over the place... like I used to do... *laugh*

It's *almost* fortunate the Warp Spider models are so rare...   :p

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 36

(semajnollissor @ May 30 2008,16:32)
QUOTE
Well, the Cobra and Void Spinner make sense in pairs and the Void Spinner makes sense in 3s, but I agree with you that Scorpions, and certainly storm serpents are more useful as singly activating formations when taken in homogeneous formations. There may be value, though, in taking mix and match combinations, like 2 cobras and a scorpion, or 2 cobras and a storm serpent. Probably only in high point value games though.

I wouldn't be against a discount for multiples (or just limiting the formation to 1-2 EoVs instead of 1-3), but it might be easier to worry about it the next go around of the review.

I would never take more than one Void Spinner per formation. More activations and having multiple BP3 barrages (now with AT5!) and thus the ability to attack multiple targets is much more tempting. But I have to admit that Cobras work pretty well in pairs although they are still very difficult to use at 30cm range (minus barrage template!).

For me, the only reason to field Scorpions and Cobras are those absolutely awesome models. ?:cool:

By the way, three EoVs in one formation will most often be the BTS, which is another clear disadvantage regarding their fragility espacially when beeing assaulted.






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK

(Fenvarien @ Jun. 02 2008,18:35)
QUOTE
I would never take more than one Void Spinner per formation. More activations and having multiple BP3 barrages (now with AT5!) and thus the ability to attack multiple targets is much more tempting. But I have to admit that Cobras work pretty well in pairs although they are still very difficult to use at 30cm range (minus barrage template!).

For me, the only reason to field Scorpions and Cobras are those absolutely awesome models. ?:cool:

By the way, three EoVs in one formation will most often be the BTS, which is another clear disadvantage regarding their fragility espacially when beeing assaulted.

Cobras are difficult, but I think you may also be handicapping yourself a little if I have read your post correctly. If you re-read the barrage rules again, you will see that the range is measured from model to model, (not model to template). So if you have the range to a single unit, the template can be placed to cover other units that are more than 30 cms away. In theory, assuming there is one unit 30cms from the Cobra, the template can extend to ~37 cms from the Cobra. The thing that makes a pair of Cobras more devastating is that the second template can be placed even further away, so potentially covering units up to 45 cms away - and if you can park one or more templates centrally over WE, they really come into their own with the TK weaponry.

That said, I agree that Cobras are about the only EoV that I field in pairs (and never threes) because of the cost and relative weakness of the formation. Then again, I never get to play in bigger games because of time constraints - they would start to make sense in 5K+ games where there are even bigger formations about.





_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:53 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 36

(Ginger @ Jun. 02 2008,20:38)
QUOTE

(Fenvarien @ Jun. 02 2008,18:35)
QUOTE
I would never take more than one Void Spinner per formation. More activations and having multiple BP3 barrages (now with AT5!) and thus the ability to attack multiple targets is much more tempting. But I have to admit that Cobras work pretty well in pairs although they are still very difficult to use at 30cm range (minus barrage template!).

For me, the only reason to field Scorpions and Cobras are those absolutely awesome models. ?:cool:

By the way, three EoVs in one formation will most often be the BTS, which is another clear disadvantage regarding their fragility espacially when beeing assaulted.

Cobras are difficult, but I think you may also be handicapping yourself a little if I have read your post correctly. If you re-read the barrage rules again, you will see that the range is measured from model to model, (not model to template). So if you have the range to a single unit, the template can be placed to cover other units that are more than 30 cms away. In theory, assuming there is one unit 30cms from the Cobra, the template can extend to ~37 cms from the Cobra. The thing that makes a pair of Cobras more devastating is that the second template can be placed even further away, so potentially covering units up to 45 cms away - and if you can park one or more templates centrally over WE, they really come into their own with the TK weaponry.

That said, I agree that Cobras are about the only EoV that I field in pairs (and never threes) because of the cost and relative weakness of the formation. Then again, I never get to play in bigger games because of time constraints - they would start to make sense in 5K+ games where there are even bigger formations about.

Yep, indeed. So we always used it wrong. Will try them once more and hopefully make it into D-Cannon range now. On the other hand fielding two Cobras is something you normally can?t afford in a standard 3k game.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5467
Location: London, UK
I have been considering that very issue, at least in part because I have a mild aversion to "titan based" armies and have been trying to find ways of using other formations more effectively. To avoid making the Cobra pair the BTS (which is self-evidently a weakness), you need to field something bigger, and Aspects in Wave serpents with one or two Exarchs are ideal - but this means you now have two formations for 1050 points.

Another rule of thumb I tend to use is to average out the cost of units to between 250 and 330 points (or between 9-12 activations). To achieve this with these two big formations means that you need to field 3-5 other smaller ones (up to 200 points each) which is definitely possible. A final rule is that I count Storm serpents and vampires as 1/2 activation each because of the way they work - so for example my usual Storm Serpent list has 11 formations, but 10 activations on average.

3000 points does just about let you do all the above, and field a moderately competitive army to boot - but a major part of the Eldar is actually making their special rules work to your advantage; and then being "lucky" with the dice.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 36
Once again on Howling Banshees: I think it?s a bit odd that their Exarch?s extra attack does not have the first strike ability. Sometimes it?s just waisted because the enemy unit in BtB is already killed by first striking regular banshees not leaving any more targets in CC.
Very strange and sad for those outstanding new HB-Exarch models.

So why not putting "First Strike" to the notes? I still think that Striking Scorpions are the much better choice - - even with HB?s at CC 2+. I know that many people out there think it would be too much but adding "Infiltrator" would actually make them worth taking.

One could also take a closer look on the other side of the hill and ask: Do Striking Scorpions really need to have a 4+ save (making them SM tough)?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6396
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
To drag my idea from the SG forum...

A lot of people keep complaining about how the Striking Scorpion are used more like Banshees should be (fluff wise) and vice versa.  My thought was to simply reverse their statistics.  If necessary adjust the Striking Scorpions to CC2+ as was being discussed for the Banshees.  This way you aren't missing out on the utility of your models (as long as you have both sets of Aspects that is).

_________________
Current Fan-made Epic Supplements
[url=http://www.tacticalwargames.net/resources/raiders2.zip]Epic: Raiders 2.0

Epic: Siege
Making your own Epic Supplement
Syncing Forward


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [NetEA] Biel-Tan/Eldar change list
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:16 pm
Posts: 400
Location: Boston, MA
I liked Mosc's idea when I first read it, and I like it now.

Swapping the stats then re-adjusting the  Scorpions is a simple way to end the fluff argument.

And yes, Scorps should have a 4+ save, its a little tougher compared to Marines in 40k, but Scorps are clearly tougher than IG Storm Troopers who have a 5+.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net