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[NetEA] Eldar Month!

 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Aug. 2008, 09:57 )

Would a Scorpion with three shots instead of two be over the top?

Compared to a fire prism troupe, I'd say that a scorpion with three shots is too good, but comparing it to a falcon troupe, I'd say that 3 shots sounds about right.

Things only get more complicated since we have a stand alone Fire Prism troupe in the Beil-tan list that isn't in the other lists.


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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:34 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:57 )

Quote: (Fenvarien @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:52 )

The Scorpion suffered by far the most from changing "pulse" reducing its firepower by an estimated third. As I already proposed, "de-linking" its pulsars - like the Revenants have it - could help here. Another way of making it competitive with AVs (and Revenants!) could be to increase its main weapons range to 75cm.

Would a Scorpion with three shots instead of two be over the top?

I don´t think so! Would be a good solution and a relatively easy change.


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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:43 pm 
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If Warp Spiders are still a problem, then what about dropping their armour down to 5+?

They aren't really any more armoured than Dark Reapers, and those guys have 5+ armour.


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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Quote: (semajnollissor @ 15 Aug. 2008, 16:11 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Aug. 2008, 09:57 )

Would a Scorpion with three shots instead of two be over the top?

Compared to a fire prism troupe, I'd say that a scorpion with three shots is too good, but comparing it to a falcon troupe, I'd say that 3 shots sounds about right.

Things only get more complicated since we have a stand alone Fire Prism troupe in the Beil-tan list that isn't in the other lists.

The problem are the Fire Prisms. Without spirit stones they are extremely fragile so spending 250pts for them is very much of a risk. On the other hand they are 10cm faster than a Scorpian which is a huge advantage in comparison (double actions!).


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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:57 )

Quote: (Fenvarien @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:52 )

The Scorpion suffered by far the most from changing "pulse" reducing its firepower by an estimated third. As I already proposed, "de-linking" its pulsars - like the Revenants have it - could help here. Another way of making it competitive with AVs (and Revenants!) could be to increase its main weapons range to 75cm.

Would a Scorpion with three shots instead of two be over the top?

Please, for pity's sake, don't even think about it.

The Scorpion didn't lose 1/3 of its fire.  I understand that comes from the perception that it was highly likely to get three shots and now gets only 2, but that's just not how the math works.  It actually went from ~2.1 average hits to 1.67.  That's about a 20% decrease, not 33%.

The Scorpion was far and away a better deal for fire support at 250 points than Falcons.  Even with fewer hits the MW would kill as many enemy and the Scorpion is a lot tougher against everything except multi-TK.  Now, after a boost to the Falcons and a drop to the Scorpion, the Scorpion works like most other WEs - less firepower with more durability as compared to comparable points of AVs.  It is now a reasonable alternative to Falcons for armor support, with a different battlefield role, instead of being an "no brainer" choice over them that as good or better in all roles.

Firepower:
1 Scorpion - 1.66 MW hits, 1.33 at -1 (double or cover), 1 at -2, 1.66 at +1
5 Falcons - 5 normal hits, 3.33 at -1, 1.66 at -2, 6.7 at +1

Hits to kill:
Scorpion - 5.8 (counting crits)
Falcons - 7.5

Hits to break, single volley:
Scorpion - 4.5
Falcons - 3

Hits to break, 2 volley:
Scorpion - 2.25
Falcons - 3

That might look like the Scorpion is less tough and has less firepower, but note that it never loses firepower while the Falcons will lose units.  Also, it is never suppressed, while the Falcons suffer suppression.  Add in the additional range that synergizes with pop-up ability and the fact that they can fire/retreat without losing nearly the same percentage of firepower as the Falcons and Scorpions will virtually always outlast them and will put the same total damage on-target over the course of a game.

Obviously, there are a host of other considerations as well - Scorpions are more vulnerable to Disrupt, Falcons to barrage weapons, and so on.  However, those seem to just about average out.

If you want close-in support where the Falcons can maximize their fire (with secondary weapons) and directly support assaults, they are better.  If you want long range firepower to pick off hard targets and prep for assaults, the Scorpions are better.

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Quote: (semajnollissor @ 15 Aug. 2008, 16:43 )

If Warp Spiders are still a problem, then what about dropping their armour down to 5+?

They aren't really any more armoured than Dark Reapers, and those guys have 5+ armour.

Yep, that could bring them in line and would fit the fluff.


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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:08 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 15 Aug. 2008, 16:46 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:57 )

Quote: (Fenvarien @ 15 Aug. 2008, 15:52 )

The Scorpion suffered by far the most from changing "pulse" reducing its firepower by an estimated third. As I already proposed, "de-linking" its pulsars - like the Revenants have it - could help here. Another way of making it competitive with AVs (and Revenants!) could be to increase its main weapons range to 75cm.

Would a Scorpion with three shots instead of two be over the top?

Please, for pity's sake, don't even think about it.

The Scorpion didn't lose 1/3 of its fire.  I understand that comes from the perception that it was highly likely to get three shots and now gets only 2, but that's just not how the math works.  It actually went from ~2.1 average hits to 1.67.  That's about a 20% decrease, not 33%.

The Scorpion was far and away a better deal for fire support at 250 points than Falcons.  Even with fewer hits the MW would kill as many enemy and the Scorpion is a lot tougher against everything except multi-TK.  Now, after a boost to the Falcons and a drop to the Scorpion, the Scorpion works like most other WEs - less firepower with more durability as compared to comparable points of AVs.  It is now a reasonable alternative to Falcons for armor support, with a different battlefield role, instead of being an "no brainer" choice over them that as good or better in all roles.

Firepower:
1 Scorpion - 1.66 MW hits, 1.33 at -1 (double or cover), 1 at -2, 1.66 at +1
5 Falcons - 5 normal hits, 3.33 at -1, 1.66 at -2, 6.7 at +1

Hits to kill:
Scorpion - 5.8 (counting crits)
Falcons - 7.5

Hits to break, single volley:
Scorpion - 4.5
Falcons - 3

Hits to break, 2 volley:
Scorpion - 2.25
Falcons - 3

That might look like the Scorpion is less tough and has less firepower, but note that it never loses firepower while the Falcons will lose units.  Also, it is never suppressed, while the Falcons suffer suppression.  Add in the additional range that synergizes with pop-up ability and the fact that they can fire/retreat without losing nearly the same percentage of firepower as the Falcons and Scorpions will virtually always outlast them and will put the same total damage on-target over the course of a game.

Obviously, there are a host of other considerations as well - Scorpions are more vulnerable to Disrupt, Falcons to barrage weapons, and so on.  However, those seem to just about average out.

If you want close-in support where the Falcons can maximize their fire (with secondary weapons) and directly support assaults, they are better.  If you want long range firepower to pick off hard targets and prep for assaults, the Scorpions are better.

You just forgot about two major advantages of the falcon-troupe. Falcons are 10cm faster (making them not at least better suitable for cross-firing) and they may consist of up to two Fire Storms, i.e. giving them decent AA and further target-flexibility.

Would you really consider Scorpions not worth of an improvement? Then I don´t think we will see much of them on the battlefield beeing left at home for taking Falcons, Fire Prisms and Revenants.

By the way, those Multi-TK Weapons (Shadowswords, Pin-Point Attacks etc.) really hurt EoV´s.

So if 3 Shots are really to much, I still think there has to be done something about them.





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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:02 pm 
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I agree on that, scorpion is excellent. It provides long range hit and run shooting with very good accuracy (even when doubling). SHT:S overall are quite fine now, only cobra does really need that hits as AP on MW weapons.

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:40 pm 
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I think my opinion on SHTs is biased due to becoming an exclusively IG player recently.

When I show up for a game and people know I'm coming they almost never bring SHTs since 'vulnerable to multiple TK' is a huge liability against the Guard.

Now those Aspects.

Warp Spiders (these guys are the Princes of the Universe, 4+ armor is really much too good given all their other stuff)
Dark Reapers (I don't see much use for them given the heavy Assault focus of Aspect formations and the greater power of other units in shooting, but they do have a uses if only to let the formation throw a BM or two)
Fire Dragons (MW FF is a close second to First Striking FF, especially for supporting Assaults against hard Tank formations)
Swooping Hawks Only really useful in Pure formations to Teleport or to add a few as harassers for their scout ability.
Shining Spears Worse than Swooping hawks, these guys need better CC, better FF, both or another ability.
Dire Avengers (Their Exarch gets a CC attack that isn't a MW and has a worse value than their 2 FF attacks. The simple conflict there, as well as 2 attacks generally being not as good as 1 Infiltrating First Strike Attack, or 1 MW, one side-lines them.)
Striking Scorpions (If you're going to choose CC Aspects its these guys, mainly for their armor)
Howling Banshees (poor cousins of the Warp Spider, even 2+ CC can't make them a good choice)

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Scorpions are great escorts for Storm Serpents too.  Running them together and you have something that is great at long and mid distances that NOBODY wants to get close to (for fear of whatever comes out of the wraithgate).  

Shining Spears Worse than Swooping hawks, these guys need better CC, better FF, both or another ability.

Uhm... You have obviously never been the victim of the Shining Spear.  These things are assaulting machines.  CC4+, FF5+, moving at 35cm, skimming, and LANCE on their CC.  They don't break easy due to their formation size (at least for Biel-tan), they save on a 4+.  Ask some of my victims what Shining Spears do to their AVs.  Lay a single BM on a Lemun Russ formation and CC them with Shining Spears and the results are pretty staggering.  Once I took out two fresh Warhounds who got too close to a Wraithgate.  They were both destroyed.
These are just two examples.  As much as I love them I'd recommend leaving them alone.

In all honesty I think the two Aspect types mentioned are all that remains to be tweaked.

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:33 pm 
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Since this is a NetEA project, how about...

We do aspect-specific Exarchs.

Everyone always asks about this.  I'm really tired of all the min-maxing aspect mixes and complaints about what exarchs get and whether the special abilities apply.  Give the Banshee Exarch FS.  Give the Scorpion Exarch MW.  And so on.

It's an easy fix, won't really unbalance anything even if we screw it up (which I don't think we will) and it addresses a very common complaint.  I don't see any reason not to do this.

===

Heck, for that matter, we could do something even more radical, like restricting the composition of the Aspect host.  I don't want to get completely crazy, but we could drop the "everything one price" idea and price them in blocks.  This is purely spitballing, but something like...

Form a single host from 2 troupes:
4 Warp Spiders - 175 points
4 Dire Avengers - 150 points
4 Striking Scorpions - 150 points
4 Howling Banshees - 125 points
etc.

0-1 Exarch per troupe - 25 points each
4 Waveserpents - 200 points
Replace 1 Waveserpent with 2 Falcons - 50 points per Falcon

Or maybe not.  Maybe that's a bit much.

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:39 pm 
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I think moving the prices around is possibly a good idea if the units can't be balanced with stats.

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 Post subject: [NetEA] Eldar Month!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm 
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For a historical perspective, through a substantial portion of playtesting it used to require a certain number of aspect units before you could buy an Exarch for them.  IIRC, it was every 3rd unit allowed it, back when the aspects were 6 in a host.  So, if you wanted 2 exarchs you had to have 6 of one type or a split of 3/3 with one exarch of each type.  Otherwise, you were going to be limited to a single exarch of the most prominent aspect in the host.  None of this "6 Dire Avengers and 2 Dark Reapers with Exarchs" junk.  You had to have a real presence from the shrine before the Exarch would show up.

The more I think about it, the more I like the "blocks" idea for both background and min-max prevention.

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