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Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:18 pm 
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The wraith knight is what PFE200 wants to introduce in the fir iolarion list he's testing it in the yem-loc list.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:37 am 
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Yes the wraith knights currently been tested in the yem-loc list....

revenant twins as a warhost was done in 4.2 and thoughts from the Sub-ac back then was that they were to power full in that section and so were dropped to the troupe section..

OK so I have made announcement about New sub-ac over here..

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31945

In the coming week/s will start new thread for the Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan....So please bear with us...

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:31 am 
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Think it's necessary to look at the titan costs:
- a regular pulse laser revenant is not worth 400 points, core or otherwise
- paying an extra 100 points for twin revenants compared to biel tan lists?
- phantom is overpriced, the pulsar/PF variant shouldn't cost more than the biel tan list
- autarch may be overpriced, it's 50 in the other eldar lists which have 2+ initiative and don't already have leader (so benefit more). 50 would be fine though given he's sat in a titan.
- exarch also overpriced, it makes a phantom with inspiring cost more than a warlock with the same weapons. 50 tops, could probably even get away with 25 as a spare points filler.
- likewise spirit stones is a bit pointless at that price - cannot imagine buying a revenant for 450 points
Limiting the chaff that can be taken alongside the titans would help make cost reductions possible.

Overall even bringing costs back down to biel tan levels, can't help but think the high value of the titans are going to make the list even tricker than AMTL to balance (considering they are still only DC6). Arguably they have a slightly greater need for cheap buffer activations (especially without access to cheap planes) so maybe 150 is fine, but 3:1 ratio seems excessive.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:29 am 
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Quote:
- autarch may be overpriced, it's 50 in the other eldar lists which have 2+ initiative and don't already have leader (so benefit more). 50 would be fine though given he's sat in a titan.

In other Eldar lists the Autarch replaces an Exarch, which must be paid for- so it's a 75 point upgrade in total for them as well. Although other Eldar lists have a 2+ initiative, and so are more likely to need the re-roll, a Titan list is more likely to have few and expensive formations, making that re-roll more important when it is used.

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- likewise spirit stones is a bit pointless at that price - cannot imagine buying a revenant for 450 points

The Leader ability is a rarity for Eldar- I assume this is an intentional weakness, and therefore it's reasonable that they'd need to pay a relatively high price to overcome it.

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- exarch also overpriced, it makes a phantom with inspiring cost more than a warlock with the same weapons. 50 tops, could probably even get away with 25 as a spare points filler.

I agree the Exarchs seem overpriced, though I wouldn't go lower than 50pts. Eldar titans already have a big advantage in assaults as they get to use their 3+ holofield save, so a guaranteed +1 to their combat result will mean opponents will really struggle to win.

I assume the list in the first post is the most current one? If it hasn't already been discovered, the notes for the Exarch and Spirit Stones in the summary sheet have been switched around.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Geep wrote:
Quote:
- autarch may be overpriced, it's 50 in the other eldar lists which have 2+ initiative and don't already have leader (so benefit more). 50 would be fine though given he's sat in a titan.

In other Eldar lists the Autarch replaces an Exarch, which must be paid for- so it's a 75 point upgrade in total for them as well. Although other Eldar lists have a 2+ initiative, and so are more likely to need the re-roll, a Titan list is more likely to have few and expensive formations, making that re-roll more important when it is used.

No, in other lists the exarch brings other abilities that are unrelated to this upgrade: inspiring, and extra attack. What you pay extra for (50 points) when you take the autarch is Supreme Commander, and another macro extra attack. The titans only get SC, and even that the Leader part is not helpful. If you want to compare to the 75 point autarch in other lists then you should be looking at the combined cost of the autarch AND exarch abilities in the titan list, i.e. 175 points(!)

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- likewise spirit stones is a bit pointless at that price - cannot imagine buying a revenant for 450 points

The Leader ability is a rarity for Eldar- I assume this is an intentional weakness, and therefore it's reasonable that they'd need to pay a relatively high price to overcome it.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact it's too much to pay on a single revenant. (By the way for some context, remember that when Swordwind was first released, Spirit Stones was a free ability given to all formations(!), deliberately to counteract the weakness of Eldar (attrition). Gladly that was swiftly amended. Not saying they should have it - I'd probably rather they couldnt get spirit stones to simplify things rather than have it as a 50 point option.)

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Quote:
- exarch also overpriced, it makes a phantom with inspiring cost more than a warlock with the same weapons. 50 tops, could probably even get away with 25 as a spare points filler.

I agree the Exarchs seem overpriced, though I wouldn't go lower than 50pts. Eldar titans already have a big advantage in assaults as they get to use their 3+ holofield save, so a guaranteed +1 to their combat result will mean opponents will really struggle to win.
Agreed it's a very nice ability - but it's one the warlock already has so what I'm talking about is internal consistency in the list overall - that needs adjusting, whether in the cost of the phantom, warlock or exarch ability. Maybe a good approach would be to enumerate all the different combinations and put a price against each of them, to see whether they make sense and adjust accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:48 pm 
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Consul Avenging Angel wrote:
Yeah been nerding it on Lexicanum and found the one line reference with no explain, nice. I don't see why fir iolarion shouldn't be able summon avatar it's eldar after all and the clan is part of the still active Lugganath craftworld.


As has been occasionally used as a club to batter me when I plead for fluff over function in lists I have a particular love for, the game balance must come first and the theme of the list has to be tight, succinct and deeply thematic.

The Avatar popping up around the ankles of a warlock titan assault fits none of those points. That, to me, is why it should be culled from the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:03 pm 
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Is the list that strong that it actually needs that kind of a downgrade?

My impression from my relatively recent interest in the list is that it's kinda consistently losing?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Is the list that strong that it actually needs that kind of a downgrade?

My impression from my relatively recent interest in the list is that it's kinda consistently losing?


If the list is weak it is because of the cost of the titans causing a lack of activations, as it is with every other titan list. The Avatar is no more than an ill-fitting bandaid that only functions to add unnecessary weight to one then-imbalanced activation.

Besides, it still doesn't fit with the aim of providing a tight theme for the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:18 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Is the list that strong that it actually needs that kind of a downgrade?

My impression from my relatively recent interest in the list is that it's kinda consistently losing?



When tested here in Aus it was definitely NOT seen as weak

When you put in Holofields, movement and raider rules with a full Titan list this army can blow out hard to be be a bit OP.

It will be interesting to see where the current AC takes the army, I know a few of the Aussie TO's will be watching the list to see how it compares to other lists. (We generally allow Developmental lists in tourneys, but Squats are now banned until reworked after the Cancon 2016 incident)


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:59 am 
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Definitely need to see more lists and battle reports. Time to bring out the cameras again.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:18 am 
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Mard wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Is the list that strong that it actually needs that kind of a downgrade?

My impression from my relatively recent interest in the list is that it's kinda consistently losing?



When tested here in Aus it was definitely NOT seen as weak

When you put in Holofields, movement and raider rules with a full Titan list this army can blow out hard to be be a bit OP.

Do the antipodeans play that tall models (like Eldar Titans) can look over the tops of buildings and see through woods and ruins and stuff? I think I heard that said once? It might account for part of the difference, if the Eldar find it easier to bring their weapons to bear? Where were they winning their battles, in Engagements or at range?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:24 pm 
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Well I’m one of those :) …..and yes I use TLOS in all of my 387 games. I don’t see it been a problem and I don’t see it begin a problem in how the others play the LOS…..So long as we respect that and each group is consistent with the way they play LOS, then it should not be problem…

My six games were I used the List with version 4.2/4.2.1 for viewing pleasure EC..

http://pfe100.blogspot.com.au/search/la ... Clan%204.2

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:29 pm 
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> So long as we respect that and each group is consistent with the way they play LOS, then it should not be problem…

If it resulted in a list that was balanced under one rule system, but not another rule system, that would be a problem I should think. Don't know if it definitely would result in that, just speculating.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:57 pm 
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New thread here for development 4.2.2...

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31952

This Topic will be locked...

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