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Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:40 am 
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Hi Greg,

Thanks for that report mate.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:52 am 
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Hey mate here is a theoretical list I am contemplating

1 x warlock standard load out
2 x phantom standard load out
1 x revenant standard load out
2 units of war walkers

Total 3000 points

Low activations no supp comm

But should be fun I think


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:10 am 
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PFE100 wrote:
Fudd wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for that report mate.


No problem, so whens your next game.. I was wondering if you mind taking a Phantom with two d-cannons for test spin... :)


Hey Greg,

I had two games yesterday with the titans and i've been running this list.

Phantom, 2 pulsar, sup com
Phantom 2 pulsar
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers

Yes it's low activations, but all 6 formations are "kitted" as you would find them in the biel tan list. my goal here was to test straight up what an army of generic eldar titans was like... the results were shockingly brutal.

I've now got extremely strong concerns for the list in terms of balance. I've had a lot of discussion with my gaming group and members from our local club and the general consensus that i'm starting to lean towards is that the list in its current form just isn't going to work and isn't fun to face by any means.
Facing a biel tan or iyanden army that includes a single phantom or a pair of revenants is a tough challenge to face in those armies.
However an army of eldar titans that are able to move shoot move or shoot and move, along with 3+ holofields and the incredible speed of the titans is just ludicrous.

The only real threat to the army appears to be high activation infantry spam armies and even then there's quiet a lot of weapon upgrades available to the titans to deal with Infantry. Many of the weaknesses you associate with AMTL for instance don't effect an army of eldar titans.

I've begun considering a restructure to the list that would still be an "eldar titan clan" but they would function very differently to the eldar titans you come across in a biel tan army, keeping in mind the whole time my aim is balancing for 3k tournaments.
So the "designers notes" behind it would be to disassociate a phantom in the Fir Iolarion army list with one you'd come across in the Biel Tan 4.2, think of those titans in Biel Tan 4.2 as the most sacred relics With the entire knowledge and attention of their craftworld bearing the brightest of their soul stones and technology. Whereas the titans you find in the Fir Iolarion Titan Clan are a lot more of a pack of run down idiots for lack of a better way of putting it.

This would lead to a trimmed back version of the titans you would pay points for, each coming with a standard load out of far less impressive weaponry than what would normally be expected from the standard biel tan load out. with the ability to upgrade, with a suitable points price tag, to better weaponry.
Hit and run tactics would not be an army special rule, rather an upgrade.
Holofields would be 4+ to begin with army wide with potential further nerfing should it be required to an upgrade rather than an army wide inclusion.
I feel removing singular revenants all together would be a positive one and restructuing list selection criteria at the same time so that your core formations are Warlocks, Phantoms or a set of twin Revenants.
While support formations of wraith lords, war walkers, the re introduction of a knight formation that somewhat resemble GW's 40k eldar wraithknight and potentially the removal of guardian formations or perhaps limiting their availability so as to not allow huge amounts of infantry into the list.


Now after reading this you've probably started to think, damn that's some pretty hefty and extreme changes proposed have a bit of a read about this-

I played my mate Zac or better known on these forums as Caz, Yesterday in a 3k game that lasted less than 40 minutes for 3 turns and that included deployment..

He used Codex Astartes which he is usually extremely competitive with and you're very lucky to get a victory against let alone if you do, achieve very many victory conditions, i consider him an extremely tough opponent who rarely makes mistakes generally placing quiet well at tournaments here on the east coast.

I used the 6 activation list i mentioned earlier and at the end of turn 1 Zac lost ..
3 out of 4land raiders from a formation
Predators 3 out of 4 form a formation
Thunder hawk
No more transports from his Sup com Tact formation
And a thunderbolt
Fudd took a wound on a phantom and a revenant

22 minutes later it was the end of turn 3, i'd taken no further damage although 1 revenant was broken and Zac had a single thunderbolt left. 3-0 and 2912.5 victory points. In my opinion no army in the game should be this devastating.

Zac's list.
1. Tactical Det 500
Sup Comd
2 x Razorbacks
2 x Rhinos
Hunter

2. Terminator Det 400
Chaplain

3. Bike Det 250
Chaplain
1 x Attack Bike

4. Land Speeder Det 250
2 x Typhoon

5. Predator Det 250

6. Land Raider Det 325

7. Thunderhawk 200

8. Whirlwind Det 375
Hunter

9. Warhound Titan 275

10. Thunderbolt Sqn 175


I also played a game prior to this against necrons and aside from the necrons killing a revenant with a pylon, i was quickly able to delete the two pylons in his list, then go about demolishing his monolith and obelisk formations which eventually only saw a single fire fight engagement successfully pulled off by the necron player against one of the phantoms, which inflicted a single wound and broke the phantom, who later rallied with ease. the game was called at the bottom of turn 3 although it was going to turn 4, had it of done so i would have killed the last formation of monoliths and been able to scatter onto objectives making it 5-0




I know that this is a lot of information to digest but i'd really, really like it if i could get some feedback and opinions from the community.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:24 am 
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I think you're on the right track with these changes Fudd. The list needs to be balanced in a 3k tournament environment and all your games have proved thus far that the standard titans from the Biel tan lists are way OP to just be ported straight across.

I know you've discussed the list extensively with most prolific epic players on the east coast as well as some of the best players by far, this is not an easy list to balance and you have probably the toughest job of wrangling into something fun to play against as well as be competitive.

I know I for one will support the choices you make and will be happy to play against any iteration of the list you come up with that needs play testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:38 am 
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Thanks for your reply Greg.

I'll make the changes you suggest for the 4.2.1 release and we'll see how we go mate.

What were you concerns with the D-cannon? i was thinking it might be a bit OP running two on the one titan, perhaps 0-1 as i was going to do the same with the tremor cannon.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:27 am 
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Something to note: if you play true line of sight then that is a significant help to a shooting list full of pulsars. It wouldn't otherwise be possible for a list with 6 activations to kill that much stuff in turn 1. In the UK Titans tend not to perform quite as well as you might expect from their stats for that reason. I'm not saying either way is right or trying to fire up that debate I just think it is worth bearing in mind that reports from around the world might not come up with the same results.

In terms of changes, surely the biggest problem the list has is singleton revenants. Before going off on a rampage of changes, change that one thing and see what happens. You will have to build completely different lists and I suspect that could go a long way and provide a better starting point for balancing the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Fudd wrote:
PFE100 wrote:
Fudd wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for that report mate.


No problem, so whens your next game.. I was wondering if you mind taking a Phantom with two d-cannons for test spin... :)


Hey Greg,

I had two games yesterday with the titans and i've been running this list.

Phantom, 2 pulsar, sup com
Phantom 2 pulsar
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers
Revenant, pulse lasers

.....

I used the 6 activation list i mentioned earlier and at the end of turn 1 Zac lost ..
3 out of 4land raiders from a formation
Predators 3 out of 4 form a formation
Thunder hawk
No more transports from his Sup com Tact formation
And a thunderbolt
Fudd took a wound on a phantom and a revenant

22 minutes later it was the end of turn 3, i'd taken no further damage although 1 revenant was broken and Zac had a single thunderbolt left. 3-0 and 2912.5 victory points. In my opinion no army in the game should be this devastating.

Zac's list.
1. Tactical Det 500
Sup Comd
2 x Razorbacks
2 x Rhinos
Hunter

2. Terminator Det 400
Chaplain

3. Bike Det 250
Chaplain
1 x Attack Bike

4. Land Speeder Det 250
2 x Typhoon

5. Predator Det 250

6. Land Raider Det 325

7. Thunderhawk 200

8. Whirlwind Det 375
Hunter

9. Warhound Titan 275

10. Thunderbolt Sqn 175

.




Something to take into consideration is that Space Marines, with the low unit count and high armour, absolutely hate MW attacks coming their way. I couldn't think of a better Space Marine killing army than that all Pulse Laser pixie titans list you took. You may find a better opponent against a 'normal' Steel Legion army or similar.


That being said, I have to agree with Fudd's base assertion in that it's a very difficult army to balance. Eldar Titans do everything that Ad Mech Titans do without the drawbacks:

1) Fast speed to cover all objectives
2) Great immunity to anti-titan weapons.

I've faced some great Eldar player who really know how to use the 'dance in and out of cover' tactic that make well-played eldar a frustrating opponent to face. It's exaggerated in this list as there is less activations (meaning comparably more cover to hide behind, troops are on average faster, and have fantastic weaponry to deal with all opponents.

One possible avenue that could be included in this list is to include more weapon options. AMTL allows a wide variety of titan equipment. This list could include a selection of new titan weapons, all a bit weaker than the existing weapons. The Biel Tan weapons could be bought at a premium, or at a restriction. The same idea could go for a lot of the other titan equipment - you start of with more modest titans as the base (weajer weapons, worse holofields) and then have a restriction on how much can be spent on the 'ancient' upgrades.

In the meantime, I've got some armies that have some anti-eldar builds that I'd be happy to throw at the Eldar Titans and see if I can do better than the marines.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:53 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Something to note: if you play true line of sight then that is a significant help to a shooting list full of pulsars. It wouldn't otherwise be possible for a list with 6 activations to kill that much stuff in turn 1. In the UK Titans tend not to perform quite as well as you might expect from their stats for that reason. I'm not saying either way is right or trying to fire up that debate I just think it is worth bearing in mind that reports from around the world might not come up with the same results.

In terms of changes, surely the biggest problem the list has is singleton revenants. Before going off on a rampage of changes, change that one thing and see what happens. You will have to build completely different lists and I suspect that could go a long way and provide a better starting point for balancing the list.

Kyrt, you took the words right out of my mouth :D
I would only add that we should make singleton Revenants 0-1, while retaining Revenant pairs at 650. This change alone would drop your list to only Four activations (with 100 points to spare), which I venture to suggest becomes much more balanced.

I also echo Greg's thoughts that changing the existing stats is definitely not the way to go, as these have worked well in the existing lists for many years.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:59 am 
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I don't think messing with the holofields is the answer - an increase cost to the weapons and/or base titans would be more suitable. Why not a premium to be put on doubling 2 of the same weapon types or an addition to selecting titans of the same type?
Otherwise, I think we just need to accept they are just an overpowered list and either introduce a comp system to punish or just outright call all the players of the list wankers and dismiss them from all our social groups.

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:29 am 
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Thank you everyone who's dropped by to give me some feedback. I'm not going to lie, I did exaggerate a little with potential changes in an attempt to ignite discussion within the community and i've somewhat achieved that and i appreciate the time spent sharing opinions.

I'm really glad that you all agree with the issue we've got with singular revenant formations as i feel much the same.

I'm about to post an updated version on the front page tonight and then i'm going to playtest and report as many games as possible from there and hopefully move this from experimental to developmental.

Also - why can't a find the EpicUK eldar titan list anywhere? it'd be great if someone could either link it here or PM me, either way.

Elsaurio wrote:
In the meantime, I've got some armies that have some anti-eldar builds that I'd be happy to throw at the Eldar Titans and see if I can do better than the marines.


Hey Benny,

Thanks for your comments mate and it'd be great to organise a game against the Squats some time as i know you've got a firm grip on them and a great understanding of how to smash eldars face in. so lets organise that.


Kendall - Don't kick all the ants nests at once hahahaha ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion Eldar Titan Clan 4.2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:06 am 
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Hey Fudd there isn't an epic uk eldar titan legion. Only amtl.

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