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Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1

 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:56 pm 
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What do you guys think of rehashing the Shadowseer, both to tone down the impact of the Harlequin troupe and also to introduce a little more 'fluff'. Essentially the Shadowseer is the narrator of the troup, so I am suggesting that he 'narrates' to a captive audience selected from the target of the assault.

The description on the Data sheet would now read
Quote:
Although these Eldar don’t have the same powers of the Farseers, the Shadowseers demonstrate their abilities through illusion, hypnotism, and their ability to manipulate the Webway itself. Guarded by both Warlocks and Harlequin warriors, the Shadowseer can quickly turn a fighting enemy into a mesmerized audience, waiting to be cut down.
In each performance, the Shadowseer takes the part of the narrator, selecting an 'audience' from enemies and allies alike to witness the performance. Those chosen to witness the mysterious Harlequin performance are thrice blessed
  • Chosen to witness the exquisite art and mystery of the Harlequin’s dance
  • Chosen to pass on the Harlequin’s sorrowfull message to a wider audience
  • Chosen to live while friends and colleagues suffer a myriad forms of death in the name of art.
Their knowledge of the Webway is invaluable to the Harlequin troupes, and the ability to summon larger Webway portals is coveted by the Dark Eldar and Craftworlds alike. The knowledge of such practices is said to be carried from the Black Library itself and the knowledge transferred to the Shadowseers by their troupe’s Solitaire.


The Veil Of Tears rule would be changed to read
Quote:
The nearest D3+1 non-Harlequin units to the Shadowseer (not WE) become the “audience” of the performance so do not take part in the assault. This is determined before any first strike attacks are rolled. They do not fight and cannot be targeted during the assault, and are only counted in the assault resolution if the Shadowseer has been killed during the assault.


If you like this,
- The Shadowseer's EA+1 MW should be changed to FF, since he will be in CC with target units that have become invulnerable.
- This raises the question whether the Shadowseer should be a permanent member of each Troupe rather than only an upgrade (rather like a Farseer)
- Following on from that , the Great Harlequin would replace the shadowseer when added to a formation
- And the Great Harlequin would take the role of the shadowseer where a unit from the formation is within 30cm of the Real Cegorach (except he retains the SC Reroll).


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
only marginally better than Marines
I think this is perhaps the disconnect, if you think that anything with better armour than marines is still squishy.

I'm not all that bothered about the lack of FF on mimes, harlequins being 6x6+ in FF isn't going to win them any assaults anyway.

I basically agree with everything Mark says, I built a few lists to see what could be done and they all had weaknesses, mainly to do with overspecialisation and activation count. So it's not that they are OP per se. Some of the weaknesses are not as important as they might appear because they can be played such that the harlies don't really need to be on the board much (one of the other reasons why I think they can afford to be squishier). But if there are no CC-able targets the army is going to lose big time!

something interesting could be:

yme-loc
350 SoV: farseer, 5 falcon, 2 firestorm
350 SoV: farseer, 5 falcon, 2 firestorm
250 storm serpent
250 storm serpent
300 warp spiders, autarch
100 rangers
100 rangers
100 rangers
50 wraithgate
0 avatar

harlequins
325 harlequins
475 mimes, master mime, solitaire
350 mimes, master mime

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 pm 
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Ginger wrote:

Guys, I take your point about 'squishiness'. However a 5+ RA save has 4/9 chances of failing which is only marginally better than Marines, while the 5+ save against MW provides an analogue for their holofield effects. This is a lot easier to process than yet another 'In cover' special rule.
.



by all means, go with an inv. 5+ not with terminator godmode..


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:52 pm 
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Kyrt, I'd wondered about putting them into Yme Locc as well. You basically remove the army's biggest weakness (rubbish at assaults).


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:27 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Kyrt, I'd wondered about putting them into Yme Locc as well. You basically remove the army's biggest weakness (rubbish at assaults).

StevekCole wrote:
Ginger, well up for play testing this I'd say at the moment my main concern is simply how you create balance in a list which is intended to be bolted onto 5 other lists. I'd be far more tempted to make harlequins a stand alone list and then see if such compatibility is possible, otherwise you'll have to run so many different tests.


This could be a bit tough to sort out. I think Harlequins+Allies is more straightforward as the Army is essentially CC orientated and low activation. Once you go any Eldar + Harlies you get into all sort of possibilities of sorting out other lists weaknesses. (Like the Yme Loc example.)

Perhaps Harlequins alone and Harlequins plus allies might make a good start, and we leave Dark/Eldar +Harlies on the backburner for the time being?

" Chosen to witness the exquisite art and mystery of the Harlequin’s dance
Chosen to pass on the Harlequin’s sorrowfull message to a wider audience
Chosen to live while friends and colleagues suffer a myriad forms of death in the name of art.
The nearest D3+1 non-Harlequin units to the Shadowseer (not WE) become the “audience” of the performance so do not take part in the assault."

This sounds really cool. I imagine it'll need playtesting, though. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:46 pm 
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Definitely an interesting take on the list. And I agree Mark that balancing any ad-mix of Harlies with the extended number of Eldar lists could prove 'interesting' to say the least.

Kyrt's list would definitely test one of the other concerns that I have; that Harlequins can re-enter the Webway and the Gates have no limit on the use by Harlies.
The particular scenario is a Storm Serpent that moves into range of a target, allowing several Harlequin formations to assault nearby enemy, all Harlie formations consolidating back into the Webway.
Assuming the Storm Serpents survive three turns, this could allow for the destruction of 6+ enemy formations (or up to nine in this case).
The question I have is whether this tactic is too powerfull - it is reminiscent of the "eternal air assault" that was prevented by restricting consolidation onto the air-transport. In this case, do we need to restrict the Harlequins use of the webway, perhaps one gate per entry / exit per turn (so to assault and exit the formation would need two gates)?

This use of Storm Serpents is available to all Eldar lists, and being relatively brittle, I wonder about the use of three. Teleporting Mimes is very usefull, but after a successful assault they are stuck on-table (unless you can get a Storm Serpent nearby). So basically a lot of "if"s, "But"s and "maybe"s, which IMO is the basis of an interesting game.


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 Post subject: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:54 pm 
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One use per portal would be rather rubbish. I doubt it would be quite as tough as the eternal air assault as you have things like death strikes and pin points which can knock out storm serpents, whether as aircraft tend to come on and leave very late in the turn to avoid this.

You could try one use per DC? Thus mimicking the necron portals a bit. Storm serpents are so fragile I only really get any joy out of them when they're essentially disposable (ie I can do pretty much everything I want to do with my list without them). I'd love to see a list in which they actually worked though!

Mark agree, Harlies plus allies seems to work better. Eg they get access to 'standard' eldar vehicles, possibly only those available to all other eldar lists (grav tanks, non-void spinner WEs, nightwings, night spinners etc but not vampire hunters, hornets, etc - plus no non Harlies infantry, except maybe rangers, which would remove the avatar)

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Last edited by StevekCole on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:57 pm 
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Definitely needs testing and review.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:59 pm 
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The beauty of the mimes is that they can do both if necessary. In the list above I am not sure I would use teleport though, as they are better and cheaper than harlequins even without teleport. Doubly so because for the same 50 points as the leader the master mime is also inspiring. However I would consider dropping on in order to take a second wraithgate.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:39 pm 
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How would a second Wraithgate help, if it were allowed . . . .
Most players would simply place the two T&H objectives on opposite sides of the table, or at least as far as possible from each other and the enemy Blitz.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:37 pm 
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The thing about having two is that it presents the opponent with some difficulty in getting all the objective-based victory conditions. For example if you put one opposite one of their TnH objectives (you know the location of at least one of them when you place your own) and the other on your blitz, then no matter what they have to occupy the wraithgates in order to score TnH or Blitz. At the same time at least one of your own TnH objectives is near to a wraithgate.

When you only have 1 wraithgate, if you put it on a TnH objective then your opponent can safely ignore it, and if you put it on the Blitz then it is in a less useful position for exiting the webway.

As with overwatch, the psychological impacts of some formation in the webway is often much more effective than the reality (it can only come out of one, after all!) so this type of thing can really make your opponent hesitate.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:01 am 
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wraithlords (or should that be dreadnoughts if we're harking back to RT?) in units of 3 are interesting. 3+ holofield and 4+ RA makes them a contender for the toughest units in the game. Too tough? In cover it might take an army's worth of shooting to kill them (or an overlord's shooting ;) ). Yes they can be plinked but just the same as DC3 WE. And like scout titans when they break are still useable because of fearless and can rally easy enough. The holofields give them protection against disrupt as well. I wouldn't say they were a problem as they stand - worth trying out at least?


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:44 pm 
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I didn't even give them a seconds thought at 3 per formation for their cost but I guess they could still he useful. Yes they won't die easily but are very susceptible to BMs and can't actually accomplish all that much either. They aren't really cheap enough to be a throwaway scout-botherer either.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:17 pm 
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And to make them effective they basically have to come out of a storm serpent but you need to get within 15cm as no infiltrate so a tough ask. Normal wraith lords are pretty rubbish and their only use is to make a solid BTS which isn't an option for Harlies.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:16 pm 
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Well they will probably need the storm serpent in support too, they will have a reduced variety of targets and situations, they only have so many dice and are going to be -2 on numbers with no inspiring so will need every kill they can get, preparing etc. A cheaper option though.

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