Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Assaults stop

 Post subject: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 204
Meideval man once pondered "Why am I here?"
Modern man must ponder "Why am I here again?"

We are once more back to asssaults and the hapless cituation where they drown in the grey areas.

Assaulter carries out assault, defender counter charges towards another unit. No units from the attacking unit is within 15cm/ able to see a unit from the defender (i.e 11 cm into terrain). Assault stops. Nobody broken, nobody dies. It just stops.

I'm pretty sure on this rule, but it creates a huge amount of argument.
What the rule does is force the attacker, the person most in control of the assault, to think (diffisult ask i know)- point being, attacker control your assaults.

Assault stalls is where there were an attacking unit that could FF or CC, but they die. This prevents large units from putting one 'lamb' into 15cm, safe of making up the difference if it dies. In this case, the attacker loses and is broken.

Can this be definitely agreed.
It is the bain of the modern die thrower and the scurge of the drinking classless (i.e me).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5453
Location: London, UK
“Assault stalls” situation is specifically there to stop a player using a small sacrificial formation to trigger an assault allowing a huge nearby formation to use its Support fire to wipe out the target without receiving any return fire - it is also why Support fire must shoot at units that were engaged in the assault.

“Assault stops” is not so specific, though I do agree with your plea for clarity ;)
It stems from 1.12.3 2nd sentence which states that if there are no units within 15cm of the target after the charge move, then the assault does not take place and be action ends.
The point is that in order for the countercharge step to take place, unit(s) must have been within 15cm, and this movement then carries the target units out of FF range.

The implication is that units must be ‘directly engaged’ and this requires LOS as you say, though I am not sure that this is stated either

However, your point is well made that the attacker is in control of the assault, so should make allowances for such countercharges and LoS requirements. As such this ought to be at least a FAQ, as it does come up with monotonous regularity.

What do others think?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:26 pm
Posts: 66
I agree with the previous two points that it would be great to have an official EUK FAQ on this. As said, I think that the confusion stems from the rules explicitly stating that "Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends". However there is no equivalent statement in the counter charge section. I think the debate is whether this "omission" is deliberate or not, or its inclusion would enhance the game.

If you interpret the rules "literally" and "as they are" in the above situation there is nothing at all to say that the attack stops, and therefore you move onto "Roll 1D6 for each unit that may attack", which will be no units, then move onto supporting fire, which will be no units, then you move onto combat resolution. So the assauly effectively goes straight onto resoultion.

It is a good point that the attacker is in control of the situation and so should anticipate this situation, but I feel that the argument works both ways. Similarly to choosing not to counter charge to bring another nearby unit into the combat, the defender can choose not to counter charge in the above situation. The defender also has some control over the fight. It can be argued that allowing defenders to deliberatly run from an assualt - to make it not happen, is against the spirit of assaults. Actually, making the combat "stop" could be argued to give less control to the attacker.

To my mind its not a bad compromise to make this situation go straight to combat resolution. Personally I don't mind which way it is, as long as its the "official" EUK decision.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1418
As much as it pains me to say it. I’m with Dan on this one. Certainly the way its always been played at tournies I’ve attended.As Gavin points out, the player initiating the assault is in control of whether this happens or not and going straight to the roll off is a bit of a get out of jail free for their sloppy play.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:25 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6139
Location: Leicester UK
johnjcole wrote:
However there is no equivalent statement in the counter charge section. I think the debate is whether this "omission" is deliberate or not, or its inclusion would enhance the game.


but there doesn't need to be: (emphasis mine)
Rulebook section 1.12.4 wrote:
Counter charges happen after the engaging formation has finished moving and any overwatch shots have been taken, but before the combat is resolved. All the normal charge move rules apply

that is how it is/would be ruled by EpicUK, no FAQ needed, a countercharge must follow all the normal charge move rules which includes having an attacking unit with 15cm for the assault to take place

_________________
NetEA Space Marine, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Army Champion

NetEA Red Corsairs Army Champion

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:26 pm
Posts: 66
Agreed! Fantastic. Thanks. ;D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:48 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4716
Location: North Yorkshire
I have done this more times than I like to think.

If you make this error then I am afraid that as there are no enemy stands within 15cm at then end of the moves then I would rule that the engagement has stalled and the activation is over.

Now 10+ cm into terrain and still within 15cm of the engager is an interesting one as you don't have to engage move within 10cm to see if you are confident enough to win the roll off. So in this case I would say that the assault continues, but with no shots being fired, including supporting fire. Modifiers for BMs, outnumber, inspiring etc are totalled up and a dice are rolled to resolve the attack.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 357
Location: London
I personally find this whole area often results in confusion and disagreement, also including when the result is a tie and there is no units still within 15cm (is it an attacker stall, a roll off or nothing). I'm also not sure on the significance of LOS (do you need it or not?)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 204
The point on terrain is that teh assault must have at least one unit that is able to fire fight.
This makes a mountain of sense, to prevent infantry in buildings calling an assault and staying 11cm away from tanks. Just like shooting, at least one unit must be able to have line of sight and be able to shoot.
(I think this is in the core rules).

There is also the matter of what happens when their is a draw and turn two sees no units withion 15cm / LOS, this is covered in the FAQ as going straight to roll off. I think this is pretty much created to cover the situation of an assault where a crit sees a titan stomp off (if the attackers units within 15cm were all killed in the attack it would be stalled) or where all the defenders within 15cm are killed - i.e if you attacked a squad of scouts.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:18 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6139
Location: Leicester UK
Dan 1314 wrote:
The point on terrain is that teh assault must have at least one unit that is able to fire fight.


Nope, there is zero mention in the rulebook, the only stipulation is that there must be a unit with 15cm, I'm pretty sure this rule exists because there are units in the game with no FF value, yet they are still able to engage (Genestealers vs Wildboyz in FF!)

Quote:
This makes a mountain of sense, to prevent infantry in buildings calling an assault and staying 11cm away from tanks. Just like shooting, at least one unit must be able to have line of sight and be able to shoot.
(I think this is in the core rules).


Shooting yes, engagements no, it is perfectly okay to engage without LOS or have no units actually able to shoot as above

Quote:
There is also the matter of what happens when their is a draw and turn two sees no units withion 15cm / LOS, this is covered in the FAQ as going straight to roll off. I think this is pretty much created to cover the situation of an assault where a crit sees a titan stomp off (if the attackers units within 15cm were all killed in the attack it would be stalled) or where all the defenders within 15cm are killed - i.e if you attacked a squad of scouts.


or where both sides are closer to enemy formations than each other and must countercharge away.... it's sufficiently rare that I've never had it happen in the last 6 years I've been playing and attending tournaments

_________________
NetEA Space Marine, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Army Champion

NetEA Red Corsairs Army Champion

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:26 pm
Posts: 66
Thanks for the posts guys. That's really really interesting, so may I please clarify?

I assault a unit and after charge and counter charge they are 14cm apart. There's an 11cm thick building exactly between the two units completely obscuring the two units from each other. The assault is valid, and simply goes straight to resolution without any shooting.

So we sort of assume that a wee skirmish goes on between the units, but we only represent this by combat res kills and a unit being broken at the end.

Is that right?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:43 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6139
Location: Leicester UK
yes, that is correct

_________________
NetEA Space Marine, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Army Champion

NetEA Red Corsairs Army Champion

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:26 pm
Posts: 66
Thanks, very much appreciated. :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5453
Location: London, UK
kyussinchains wrote:
or where both sides are closer to enemy formations than each other and must countercharge away.... it's sufficiently rare that I've never had it happen in the last 6 years I've been playing and attending tournaments

It has happened once to me in the many years i have played. From memory i caught my opponent with a viscious marine assault with teleporting terminators and planetfalling devestators bracketing a separated section of Eldar formations. After the Drop-pod and devestators shot, I assaulted with the terminators but didn’t get quite close enough, the target countercharged away out of 15cm, and from memory I was told the assault had stalled since there were no units directly engaged . . .

So, rare though it is, this does happen and really ought to have a FAQ, if only to stop these debates and save my poor brain cells
:nooo :wah


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Assaults stop
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:32 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:47 pm
Posts: 22
Tiny-Tim wrote:
I have done this more times than I like to think.

If you make this error then I am afraid that as there are no enemy stands within 15cm at then end of the moves then I would rule that the engagement has stalled and the activation is over.

Now 10+ cm into terrain and still within 15cm of the engager is an interesting one as you don't have to engage move within 10cm to see if you are confident enough to win the roll off. So in this case I would say that the assault continues, but with no shots being fired, including supporting fire. Modifiers for BMs, outnumber, inspiring etc are totalled up and a dice are rolled to resolve the attack.


Interesting. We haven't played it like this but it does sound a bit exploitable. An aspect squad would be able to rack up a +4 resolution without too much problem, especially against something with less then 30cm movement. Is it hard enough to engineer that it just doesn't happen often or do you guys just see it as part of the game? Much like clipping assaults?
(Say you have Aspect...Terrain...Slow Target)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net