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batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons

 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:14 pm 
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Hello all,

Having been lurking over the E:A rulebook a little bit and trying to decide on my own starting army I was curious to know what you guys use as your typical force or if you have sucha thing at al (instead of changing your army list regularly).

This causes me to ask people to post an army list that they regularly use (in sketchy format, no need for exact details if you don't want) or if you don't regularly use the same list or variants of it, why don't you? Is because your opponents change a lot and you adapt to them? because you face a specific treat in some cases/alwaysand have found that combo of units to be the best solution? ....

Thx for your time in advance :)

Health and sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm 
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We still use SM1 templates for the most part.  Usually Bn size, with attachments.  The templates are very flexible.  So you can modify them based on mission very easily.  We normally have Rgt size units, and can easily pick a Bn TF or two from those.  Or we utilize "coalition warfare" and say ... pick an SM Bn supported by an IG Co. Tm, for example.  However the rules prevent "cherry picking" ! :;):

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:32 pm 
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For my normal army, I use at least one Mech Infantry and one Tank Company. My support and upgrades change to fit the army I am playing if I know before hand.

Overall I love massed infantry and tanks so the final point value sometimes adds to the number of companies I bring.

dafrca

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:06 pm 
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I second Dafrca, at least one Mech Inf Co and a tank co, and I usually field a battery or two of artillery.  I add an inf co or a tank co depending on point total and opponent, if known.

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:23 pm 
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Hey all,

We had a summer campaign game this past weekend between IG and chaos. IG have a 150 point advantage in their games due to the situation in the campaign. A Tzeentch cult managed to infiltrate a hive city witch which the IG hold the titan pens and one of 3 gates for. The cult forces managed to cause disarray within the city by interfering with long and short vox casts. A Tzeentch army was blocking imperial forces main assault in the industrial region of the city. An epic game was to be played followed by a 40K game to weed out the Tzeentch cult.

I'm not going to give a full battle report because I know the Tsons list is in its early stages and has several elements that have since been changed in 3.5. Therefore, just a few highlights.

3150 IG vs. 3000 Tsons - Epic Armageddon.
Turns Played: 4
Steel Legion - book: 0 (lost)
Tsons v1: 4 (win)
Victory Conditions Met: everything accept blitzgreig
Turn Advantage: Tsons went first all 4 turns.
Table: 4x8 (feet)
Terrain: Heavy, industrial
Rules: Tournament, IG had 150 increase in points
Date Played: Aug,6 2005

Lists from memory:

IG
Mech Infantry Co w/ Sup Cmdr + demolishers
Infantry Co + support + ogryns
Tank Co + hydra
hydra battery
manticore battery
rough riders
vultures
stormtroopers + valkyries
thunderbolts

Tsons
9 Tzeentch Marines + 2 chars + thrall + 3 sacrifice + rhinos
9 Tzeentch Marines + 2 chars + thrall + 3 sacrifice + rhinos
9 Tzeentch Marines + 2 chars + thrall + 3 sacrifice + rhinos
2 Doomfire bombers
1 Palace of Tzeentch
9 silver towers
1 Feral Titan
1 Feral Titan
The Tsons army is all fearless and the majority of it is all reinforced armor. Some of it has invulnerable saves to boot. These two cominations + invulnerable saves in Epic are uber strong.

Fearless: Not taking the additional damage from combat and then not taking the damage from shots while they are broke make this army have increadible staying power and means they are always going to be in your face.

Reinfoced: The Reinforced 4+ armor everywhere means that actually killing them isn't so easy either.

Even though the IG had more points, they just didn't have enough shots to keep this army out of combat, much less actually kill off formations to the man.

IG managed to kill one doomfire bomber, break the palace and wound it once. put two wounds on one of the warhound titans, and took the silver tower formation down to 2 strong. Besides that, a few Tsons were killed, but nothing significant.

If we could get through the ablative daemons, we were running out of shots and the RA 4+ meant we had little chance to do lasting damage. Rhinos were easy pickings.

With supporting fire, we actually won a couple combats, but besides daemon deaths, there was nothing perminent. Fearless kept us from doing much once the formations broke.

IG lost the valkyeries and all storm troopers, the vultures, roughriders broke after being widdled down to 2 units and ran for the hills never to rally. The tank co broke down to 5 models in turn 3 (hydra, vanquisher, and 3 lemans) but would not rally, Supreme commander formation would die to the man in turn 2 from assault and extra casualties.

Like BL 3.4, this list proves to be way over powered in our group.

This game was a complete shut out - though from your Black Legion experience, it was kind of expected. We hoped the extra 150 points the IG had would help balance it. That wasn't close to enough though. IG were fighting an uphill battle the entire game.

We're hoping the chaos lists come back in line with the rest of the world. At least as balanced as Eldar - that way we can continue to use them in our campaigns. We've not tried the LatD yet though.

Anyway, just our take.

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:23 pm 
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Tactica:  I don't understand.  You knew (or should have known) that list you used is not right.

I've made some modifications and I know the thread has been bumped since you have been posting here regularly.  They were also posted in the old SG forums after you were posting there.  From July 25:

http://www.epic40k.co.uk/epicomm....nd+sons


1)  Your point totals are way off, even with the list in the vault.

3xTSons (350) - 615 points [x3 = 1845]
 *2 Char (100), Thrall (50), 3 Sacrifices (75), 4 Rhinos (40)
2 Firelords - 300
1 Palace - 350
9 silver Towers - 675
2 Warhounds - 500
===
3670 points

2) According to the new point totals, that list would be another 285 points - 3955 points.

3)  You knew there was a major change in summoning rules that was going to make them cost at least 2-3x the current cost.  Even without knowing any details, you knew the minimum point boost for 9 sacrifices and 3 Thralls would be ~300 points - ~4255 points.

That means the TSons had at least 1100 points more than the IG that you should have known about.

4) The Silver Tower formation is no longer legal.  I will assume that you used the Suns of Damnation Warhound and not the Feral Titan, which has different weapons.

Although you had no way of knowing it at the time, now that the 3.5 BL list is out, you can see that the new summoning rules would have been closer to +250 points per formation for equivalent abilities.  In other words, it wasn't 3125 v 3000.  It was 3125 v ~4600 points.


Despite the fact that the overall battle was inherently unfair, I'm sure there is a great deal of useful information to be gleaned.  By all means, please share some of the details of the action.  Anything you can describe will be appreciated.

If you can revisit the results based on the above, that would be even better, but I know it would be very difficult.  Specifically, I would like to know:

Do you think 400 points for the core TSons is a fair price for their ability?  That's well over a 25% premium over basic CSM units and well above the per unit Cult Marine upgrade cost in the new BL list.

Did the Silver Towers outperform based on what their price should have been?  Based on the fact that they were reduced to only 2 units, do you think the smaller formation size (6 max, more fragile) is also a significant mitigating factor in their would-be effectiveness?

Do you think the Warp Palace is over/underpriced at 350 points?  Do you think the total of its abilities is in line with the background material?

===

Edited a bunch because I'm apparently a typing moron today...





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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:37 pm 
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NH,

I don't keep up with the Tsons list developments. So I appoligize for not knowing the specific changes. I'll have to start keeping up with them because I think the list is pretty neat.

I wish we would've had that info. I'll try to get up to speed on that.

Regards to the Tsons army - I'm not 100% on the amount of units in each formation, but I'm pretty sure I'm close. My opponent created the list - not me. I was playing IG. example: he may have had 8 towers and not 9, but he kept telling me about the sacred Tz number... so, perhaps that is somehow ingrained in my brain. :)

The towers seemed like there were quite a few in the formation for an army that I really didn't expect to be heavy armor centric. On the other hand, they were a really neat formation. Skimming, fearless, and invulnerable save if I recall right - but no reinforced. The three shorter ranged leman cannons + long range macro hit was pretty effective. Ignoring terrain made them quite manouverable where comparable lemans would've had to drive around quite a bit.

As the adversary, although they were increadibly destructive, they were a blessing to me. They were the only thing that didn't have reinforced armor in the army! So although they packing a lot of heat for what I thought would cost him more points per model and they were hard to see and get lines too - once I could actually see them, I could hope to do some damage to them. Ironically, the Tsons player said it was the only formation he wasn't keen on because they didn't have reinforced armor - I couldn't help but LOL at that one. I can't pass judgement on the army only playing against it once - these things were slow, but really effective.

The palace was pretty tough - for the same reasons other things were. I hate to pass judgement on the army after only one game.

Since the points were apparently all screwed up - it's too hard for me to tell if it's over the top or not.

My lasting impression is - I didn't have fun in the game. The fearless + RA 4+ made it very frustrating army to play against.

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:05 pm 
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Sorry if that last post was unduly harsh.  It's been one of those days, so I'm grumpy.

The fun factor been a concern for me since my first playtest game.  Shooting and shooting and shooting and having little effect is quite frustrating (although it might not be as frustrating as playing Eldar :D )

The army as a whole is pretty one-dimensional.  It's basically made up of 2 parts - slow infantry and slow fire support, with lots of RA scattered around.  It's a race to see if the enemy can dispose of the fire support in time to deal with the assault troops coming across the board.

I can't see much way of adding variety without breaking from the background.  I've already stretched it just about as much as possible without getting full on into the old Rogue Trader style Tzeentch forces.

My experiences with the Towers has been much as you described.  They pack a huge amount of firepower but aren't very tough.  I typically find that they spend a large amount of time heavily suppressed because they are a high priority target.

I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but I'm actually also concerned about a force that's all infantry and air.  The horde of troops shambles across the board while the air cover is basically just a vehicle for placing BMs for the assaults.  Of course, that's still just a variation on the horde/fire support style.

I actually had a long discussion with Corey, the Necron Champion, about the all-RA aspect.  Early versions of the Necron list had much in common - plodding, RA infantry.  Unfortunately, we really didn't touch on anything that would help the TSons much.

It's probably not hard to balance with respect to win/loss ratios, but it's just sort of bleh on game experience.

Any input is definitely welcomed, especially if it can be used to put in some variation in play style.  Also, if you have any responses to the commentary in the margins of the list, definitely post it.

==

If you want an electronic copy of the list with the changes integrated, just let me know.

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:32 pm 
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I'd definitely like a copy of the most up to date list with the changes. We'd most definitely give it a go.

If you are going to add the daemon summoning changes in the near future, I can wait for that one.

Feel free to send along in email when ready.

Thanks,

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Sure, but I need your email address.  You can reach me at:
[deleted]

===

BTW, I didn't mention in the infantry/air version that there would be no vehicles of any type, just a huge garrison of 4+RA infantry slogging across the board.  All AT capacity would be wasted.  It seems pretty nasty in concept.

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:32 pm 
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NH,

Sorry, I figured you would grab it from my profile or something... just sent you an email with my info.

Regards to the all infantry with air support, it sounds really ugly. I can imagine many lists that would mess up.

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 Post subject: batrep: 3150 IG vs 3000 Tsons
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:19 pm 
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Sorry.  I just looked for the email icon.  I didn't even think of going for the profile.

Got your email.  I'll be merging the summoning rules sometime this week.

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