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Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for change.

 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Say for example the Bombard ideas get sanctioned - will that cascade into every list that utilises them? If not , why?


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Part of the reason that the development process got so bogged down was precicesly because of very good questions like this, which sparked endless theory-hammer limited testing and circular arguments. I understand the intention is to try to ‘cut to the chase’ by putting some ideas up and testing them.

Personally, I hope the ideas are being tested by people other than those who proposed them.

That said, please note what’s Steve said. Given the large number of proposals, I think / hope these may have been ‘brainstormed’, and if so under those principles anything is ‘valid’. BUT, at the end of the “testing period” these proposals can be voted down if they are thought to be ‘inappropriate’ (wrong or just downright “bonkers” ;) )


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:34 pm 
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I take it as that too. It's very similar to the concepts in SW as a Product Backlog. Anyone can put any idea up for consideration, just not all ideas will ever be done (e.g. prioritized around the same time as Heat Death of the Universe). Following the model, the NDC is working similar in this capacity as the Stakeholder, selecting what to focus their testing on.

I had hoped to see far more attention to perhaps pushing some "basically there and done" lists over the finish line as opposed to spending all the attention on reworking existing stuff. At the same time I can see how this is a trial run as well to get the process down and refinement from lessons learned so no biggie.

Cool to see. Keep up the good work!

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Ginger Jimmy, thankyou for your replies however, if it aint broke dont fix it.

There is still no demographic as to which army they prefer to play/do play - pose the question you have a 3k battle in 10 mins what army would you take? Would hate to see 19 ork warbands and 1 stomper mob.

The Baneblade is an inf sp SHT NOT a tank on tank vehicle, tweeking to to try to make it into something it isnt will result in its failure. Thats my point surely some of these ideas cant honestly be considered like the scout macro IC death kopter? Can see why Germany didnt fill its seats

Surprised no one mentioned how broken AMTL is? or is that due to us all playing UK list?(which is a better version imho)

So which is it to be IF the Bombard gets tweeked? army specific or cascades to all?


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 pm 
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As someone who is participating in this process: These are indeed brainstormed ideas, and the vote to go to playtest currently ongoing from now and approx 2 weeks forward.

After this first vote, we'll publish what actually went though!

While it is too late for new proposals, there is still room for people to join and vote. We're currently looking for representatives from Canada (3 free seats) Germany (5 free seats), France (5 free seats) and Denmark (5 seats), as well as other countries which can document an active tournament community.

As for the question of cascade, yes it would cascade to all armies unless otherwise specified.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:11 pm 
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I'll copy in the explanation of the process from a earlier post in this thread:

1. First they vote on what changes to existing lists or new lists that they want to take on. This is done by a majority vote (50%) in the comittee. The requests who gain enough votes to be examined will go to step 2. The voting of all requests should be done within 2 weeks after the ”active” period starts.

2. The comittee discusses the changes that made it to this step. Members try them out in their local gaming groups and give back reports of the games to the comittee. This testing and discussing should happen within a 8* week period that starts right after the first 2 week voting period in step 1 has finished.

3. The committe decides what changes to existing lists or new approved lists should be approved. This is done via a ¾ majority vote (75%). This vote should happen under a 2 week period that starts right after the testing period in step 2 finishes.

4. The comittee presents all new changes to the NetEA community and amend all lists that are affected**.

*8 weeks is way to short so we've lengthened it to 12 weeks.
**This is in no way an official thing, this is just a suggestion how the results of the process could be used.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:19 pm 
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junkstar wrote:
Surprised no one mentioned how broken AMTL is? or is that due to us all playing UK list?(which is a better version imho)


I suspect since so few people play the NetEA AMTL, and it's not exactly considered overpowered, no-one had much of an opinion about it. And we can't fix everything at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:32 pm 
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junkstar wrote:
How can anyone quantify that the Imperial Fist/BSM flak battery are the same? yet a dkok flak battery of x3 hydras is 125 yet you want to increase the underpowered flak to 150? where and how do we vote on these ideas?


The proposed change would make them cost exactly the same amount as 3 DKOK Heavy AA Platforms (125p) plus 3 Trojans (25p). While the BSM have slightly worse stats, the difference isn't huge.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Point is that the timing of the process is crucial. Too long impinges on people’s own gaming time, too short or too many items to test will render the process ‘questionable’.

Hopefully the committee will have come to an agreement on how many items can reasonably be tested in the allotted 12(?) weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:54 am 
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junkstar wrote:
But even by that 1 quick example, surely to the god emperor it should of been filtered out. In which case is there a thread/post as to where we can post more feasible ideas?

The list is being posted here for transparency and because people have asked. They are just ideas to be voted on, not a grand orchestrated plan of already-approved changes. Some of them are obviohsly mutually exclusive so that ought to be self evident.

And I'm surprised you are asking where to post your ideas - this forum has sections for all armies for exactly that purpose. If you mean how do you get the group to implement your own changes without your participation, nope that's not how it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:06 am 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
junkstar wrote:
Surprised no one mentioned how broken AMTL is? or is that due to us all playing UK list?(which is a better version imho)


I suspect since so few people play the NetEA AMTL, and it's not exactly considered overpowered, no-one had much of an opinion about it. And we can't fix everything at once.


We in Australia didnt raise it because we don't find it broken at all and think it's pretty balanced as is, and we play NetEA and no EpicUK lists

Mrdiealot wrote:
junkstar wrote:
How can anyone quantify that the Imperial Fist/BSM flak battery are the same? yet a dkok flak battery of x3 hydras is 125 yet you want to increase the underpowered flak to 150? where and how do we vote on these ideas?


The proposed change would make them cost exactly the same amount as 3 DKOK Heavy AA Platforms (125p) plus 3 Trojans (25p). While the BSM have slightly worse stats, the difference isn't huge.


Once again I voted again't these changes but will still help out with the testing as I have a full BSM army painted up.
I don't think anyone in Australia find the BSM list to be OP in any of its choices
As comparing the artillery to other lists.... i think people keep forgetting that strategy rating plays a large part in how much things cost.... marines with hyperious have strat 5, dkok strat 2 and lowlly BSM.... strat 1


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:00 pm 
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I have to echo some other concerns here. I've been worried about lack of player involvement for a while too, but I don't like the look of this at all.

Just take one issue for example, the Baneblade issue.

In the IG forum there is a very long thread where issues with the Baneblade were discussed extensively, many ideas were proposed, a ton of mathhammer was done to evaluate them, and a possible change was settled on (two shots on the main cannon) based on some sound logic and compromise. Some play testing was even done. The thread died down recently, due in large part to an almost total lack of feedback from the AC.

Now, I see that proposed change on there as one option. I also see a lot of very radical proposed changes to the Baneblade that make no sense or were eventually rejected in the Baneblade thread for good reason. Some of the suggestions would dramatically alter the role of the vehicle.

And worse, some of those suggestions I have never seen before. Where the heck did they come from? Are they the pet idea of one person on this new committee? How knowledgeable or invested are the committee members in this specific problem? How much math have they done to evaluate any of these proposals? How much personal play testing? How much discussion was there on this problem?

What happens if the committee votes and a wacky idea wins out over 12+ pages of discussion and debate and math and play testing by the community? Now we have to publicly re-litigate why their idea is crap? Or do we have no choice but to play test something we already agreed wasn't good?

We have a process in place for dealing with these things. It's slow and messy but it can work when the forum is active. The two main impediments are lack of player interest and inactive or unresponsive ACs. Solving the latter would help with the former. We need more ACs who don't ignore the problem. We need ACs who set clear goals, guide debate, encourage play testing, and give feedback on where we are in the process. I realize this burns people out. Maybe it's time for fresh blood in some cases.

Instead it looks like we're going to get some strange idea forced on us by a small secretive group. Maybe not on this issue, but eventually on some issue. The arbitrary or absentee AC can be debated, or can be replaced if we raise a stink or they get tired. But now we'll have a secret cabal voting on more lists than they can possibly intimately keep up with, and who we cannot communicate with or challenge.

I am not saying everything needs to be in the open or everything needs to be put to a public vote. I am saying if you are going to get a new committee together, the first thing the committee should do is vote on what is really an issue. Look to see where things are bogged down or stuck. Once you decide that, then you should kick the ass of whichever AC is ignoring the problem to try to jump-start the normal way of doing things.

If you think Baneblades or Stompas or whatever need changes and you want to increase community involvement, don't crap on the work we've been trying to do for months. Empower the people who care enough to get involved on a topic and make sure it doesn't die before something useful comes of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:56 pm 
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You mad bro?

More seriously, read the posts earlier in this thread to get answers to most of your questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:01 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
You mad bro?

How polite and mature of you.

Seriously though, I did read the thread. I don't think the major concerns have been answered.

I admit I wanted to be a part of this and tried to volunteer for the US, mostly for fear of missing out entirely on contributing to the game.

It seems like that fear was justified. The committee is voting on a series of proposals that are sometimes totally out of step with the community's ideas. Everything about their proposal and play testing happens in secret. And the discussion threads where work was being done on different problems have all but died in the last month.

Yes, changes are needed. Yes, there should be more flexible and active and responsive leadership at the top, and we should reconsider the way we manage list development and maintenance. But if you wanted to invigorate the community on this board, this idea does the opposite. Your community is now 30 people large. The rest of us are shouting into the void.

Edit: yes, I realize this had all been a bit salty and melodramatic, and I know what you're doing is just a proposal, but I think the point stands. If this method becomes the norm, you will see further splintering. Making lists more dynamic should increase involvement, but making the change process totally secret and less responsive to the community would lessen it.


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:06 am 
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@GrimDarkBits, I take it that you understand the brainstorming process, that a whole raft of ideas are presented initially no matter how ‘wacky’, which could include “toss a coin to win”. The committee then go through one or more rounds of voting to whittle the ideas down to an acceptable number and then spend ap to 12 weeks testing them. Fine.

Your question is whether the Baneblade ideas will end up in the rejected pile along with “toss a coin to win”. However you also raise another thought, perhaps to help the process in the future;

Mordotem, Is there some way that the wider community can help the committee to prioritise those proposals for testing through the use of a poll? This would help the community feel included, and might assist the committee in their comparison / prioritisation between different proposals (and “toss a coin to win” might just beat the Baneblade one, you never know ;D )



On a more serious note, GrimDarkBits is asking about how the quality of the process is to be managed and controlled. He suggests that many (or even all) of the ideas put forward might be invalid for some reason or another, or the AC and Sub-AC might be out-voted by ‘pressure-groups’ in the committee.

Mordoten, perhaps you could outline your thoughts on quality control within the process, (which I suspect may be largely based on trust and experience). A lot of the posts on this thread center around concerns over poor decisions and the need for assurance on how bad choices like “toss a coin to win” will never get through the process.


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