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Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for change.

 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:27 am 
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Just to point out NetEA isn't a plutocracy, neither is Epic UK and neither is this group. People can continue to post their views and test whatever they like, regardless of however else they choose to communicate.

It's all a matter of perspective - people are free to go off and form their own communities and fork the lists like several already have, so rather than look at this initiative as a cause of that, you can look at it as a response - a way to keep that momentum part of the NetEA sphere.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Could we just go back to the excellent summary at the start of the thread.
I have shortened it a little but you can read the full text on the first page.
mordoten wrote:
So this idea came about when i saw the german epic communitys own rules that they where going to try out in their next tournament. But it has been in the back of my mind for a long time.

NetEA is supposed to be a community that gathers players around the globe that plays epic. As I have understood it ERC should be the spider in this global web that coordinates new lists, changes in lists and rules amendments.
To do this the ERC needs to have as much players as possible contributing with opinions, battlereports and new content.

This is in my opinion not a good thing. Here in Sweden the NetEA process and the ERC is mainly viewed as a very slow and conservative body that feels out of touch with the gaming community. The view I get when talking to players is that they feel that is very hard to get changes through and that the process feels very undemocratic where some AC:s seems to ignore the communities ideas and wishes and nothing happens.

And the splintering is the symphtoms to a bigger problem. And that is that the ERC has lost its place as a global coordinator of this unsupported game we all enjoy. And the more players groups splinter off from the NetEA, the less good ideas and thoughts about lists and rules will be heard and shared.

So maybe it's time to try and change the ERC/NetEA process?

Instead of having a very small group that calls all the shots and single AC:s handling every list we could do it in a more open, democratic and transparent way!

The Warmaster game . . . [snip]. . . in the Warmaster community.

We can do exactly the same with NetEA! We could choose 20-30 people from different parts of the world which have active epic playing communities (Australia, Germany, UK, France, USA and Sweden comes to mind) and give each community 5 seats on this new council.

We can then gather all the changes for rules and every list up into a document under a certain time frame and then start to try them out. But instead of demandning 6 battle reports from 1 gaming group we could get everyone to do 1-2 reports and then compare the data recieved. Lets face it, finding time to get 6 games in with work and family life isn't easy.
Also coordinating testing like this (”Febuary and March we will try out all the Space Marine proposed changes”) would make it easier to maintain focus to a certain list and not have 20 changes for 20 different lists being tried at once.

After discussing and testing a little the council could then do a vote on each change. To make a change go thru you could demand a ¾ majority to ensure that most of the community would agree on it.
I think there are a number of reasons behind the apparently slow development of NetEA lists, and the subsequent development of different ‘communities’ around the world, and they are not all to do with ‘splintering’ as described - language barriers is another for example. However I would say that historically, a lot of inertia was caused by different groups of people trying to match the apparent stats of given GW troops, a mind boggling mathematical exercise, and the question of list ‘balance’ remains largely subjective (and consequentially contentious). But as Epic draws away from GW in that sense, this major stumbling block should diminish in sgnficance.

So I welcome this attempt at bringing the global communities back together again.

The proposal also mentions doing things in “a more open, democratic and transparent way”, and also proposes a timetable for listing changes, testing them, and then voting on them. All seem a good way of going about things.

I was merely asking why this could not be done on a locked thread on TacComs which would provide the much desired transparency after all.

And if the community could see which lists and changes were being tested by the group, perhaps that would give sufficient incentive to join in with the testing and submit further reports. It would do no harm if no one helps - that is the current issue you are rightly concerned about, and extra testing may give you additional perspectives to consider.


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:26 pm 
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nice sanity post Ginger. I'm excited to see what happens as well.

It would be nice, if somehow some dump of logs, data, or other output occurs via some mechanism but I'm fine if it doesn't happen either.

mordoton, is there any publishable roadmap yall have yet? curious about what's on the table first. I know it's super early days.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:28 pm 
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We will publish the results of the Step 1 vote after the 14th of March. Both what issues that went into the vote and which ones that made it through.

We still want help trying the changes out when we distilled down which ones we think is most important.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:51 pm 
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The Step 1 voting migth be moved to an earlier start! If you're interested in joining (And you're not from Sweden, USA, UK or Australia because thoose national seats are full) and want to have a say in what changes that will be voted on in the NDC, get in touch with us now!

Send me a PM to join.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:42 pm 
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The Step 1 vote is now live!.

I'm pretty excited for this and look forward to seeing the results! This is the first time we try this and theres is a ton of suggestions! But hopefully if this work out we can do this every year and work through every suggestion in a steady pace (what doesn't get voted on this year can always be suggested another time!). Below is a list of what's being voted on:

Codex Marines/Other Space marine lists:
Move Thunderhawk to 1/3 Titan/Navy slot.
Change Predators armour from 4+ to RA 5+
Change Vindicators armour from 4+ to RA 5+
Change Predators armour from 4+ to 3+
Change Vindicators armour from 4+ to 3+
Make Vindicators demolisher cannon MW4+
Drop Land raider cost from 75p tp 50p when taken as upgrades to formations.
Take away singelton Warhound option from the list.
Only allow 0-1 Singelton Warhound choice.
Drop point on Whirlwinds to 275 from current 300.
Drop point on Whirlwinds to 250 from current 300.
Change Predator Destructors Autocannon to 2xAP5/AT6.
Change Snipers upgrade to "Give up to four Scout units Sniper | +10 points each" (effectively the same costing it is now)
Change Typhoons upgrade to "Replace up to five Land Speeders with an equal number of Land Speeder Typhoons | +10 points each" (effectively the same costing it is now).
Split Space Marine Detachments into: Detachments, Support Formations, Aircraft. Move LVs, AVs and Landing Craft to Support Formations, Thunderhawk to Aircraft. No limit on Detacthments and Support Formation, but 0-1 Aircraft per Detachment.

White Scars:
Add Vindicators upgrade to Assault, Tactical and Terminator Formation
Drop Bike formation to 325 points
Drop Terminator formation to 550 points
Swap Vindicator for White Scar Vidicator (30cm move, no walker)
Change white scars bike formation to 5 units for 225 or 8 units for 350
Remove drop pods from white scars.

Ghazkhulls Warhorde/Speed Freaks:
Increase stompa formation to 4-8-12 units from the current 3-6-9 units for no points change.
Lower Blitz Brigade cost to 125-225-325 points from current 150-250-350 points.
Increase Blitz Brigade size to 5-10-15 units from current 4-8-12 units for no points change.
Lower cost on gunwagons from current 35 points to 25 points.
Give Buggies 4+ armour instead of the current 5+ armour.
Give ability to orks to sacrfice their SC reroll for a turn to give all foot slogging boyz, Nobz and Grots Infiltrate for that turn only.
Decrese battle wagon cost to 25 points from current 35 points.
Drop Battlewagon to 25 points from current 35 points AND remove 1 twin shoota
Add Kommandos Warhorde (same #'s/cost/upgrades as Stormboyz)
Increase Supa-Stompa to 300 points from current 275 points.
Decrease extra Stompas to +50 points
Add FxF to all Fighta Bomba weapons
Oddboy option to add 1d3 Powerfields
Option add Oddboys to Battlefortresses in Warband
Drop Scorcha to FF5+, give it IC on FF.
Make Stompas a DC2 Warengine (crit= destroyed) with a slight points increase.
Death koptas gains scout ability.
Death Koptas gains +1EA MW in CC.

Black Legion/LatD/Various Chaos lists:
Increase range on Hellblades to 30cm from current 15cm.
Increase range on Hellblades to 30cm from current 15cm but decrease AA to 6+.
Change flamer attacks from 2 4+attacks to 1 3+ attack.
Change flamer attacks from 2 4+attacks to 2 5+ attacks.
Give Daemonettes 20cm Move.
Give Bloodletters 20cm Move.
Give keeper of Secrets 20cm Move.
Undivided beasts gets 5+ save from current 4+.
Chaos champion cost dropped to 35 points from current 50 points.

Steel Legion/Minervan Tank Legion:
Give Baneblades main gun 2 shots instead of the current 1 shot with no change of points.
Give Baneblades main gun 2 shots instead of the current 1 shot AND lower points to 175.
Lower Baneblade cost to 175 points from current 200 points. Add +25points for upgrading to Shadowsword.
Give Baneblades 20cm move and 2xMW4+ shots, keep same cost.
Give Baneblades 20cm move and 2xMW4+ shots AND lower cost to 175.
Make Super heavy Tank Co with 3 Baneblades cost 425 points. +25 points for each upgrade to Shadowsword. +10 points for each upgrade to other variants.
Change Baneblade stats and cost: 20cm move / Main Gun: 100cm range, IC / FF 3+ / 175p for 1, 500 for 3
Take away singelton Warhound option from the list.
Drop point on Bombards to 225 from current 250.
Drop point on Basilisks to 225 from current 250.
Give Bombards 15cm move to allow them to garrison.
Change Hellhound upgrade to 1-3 Hellhounds for +25 points each

Red Corsairs:
Daemon prince option added to cult marines.
50pt flat fee for drop pods for chosen/retinues.
Brass scorpion to 275pts, gains 4+ RA and 2x battle claws.

Feral Orks:
Taking away Oddboy upgrade from formations with Orkosaurus upgrade.
Making Boarboys units 10-15-20 strong for 175-250-300 points from current 5-10-15 strong for 100-175-250 points.
Change Orkeosaurus Crit to give it +1DC damage and scatter only hits the closest unit to scatter point if multiple formations are in B2B.
Add walker to Squiggoth and Orkeosaurus.
Add FxF to Steam Gargant weapons

DKoK:
DKoK: Remove singelton warhounds from list.
DKoK: Remove Walker from Gorgons.
DKoK: Lower DC from 3 to 2 on Gorgons.
DKoK: Change Gorgon FF values to 6+ from current 5+.
DKoK: Remove heavy bolters from Gorgons and make mortars default weaponry (one-shot).
DKoK: Reduce cost of Medusa Battery from current 275 points to 200 points.

Thousand Sons:
Changing Thousans Sons Armour from RA4+ to RA5+.

World Eaters:
Make transports (dreadclaws and rhinos) free for Berzerker retinues.

Tau Third phase:
De-twin linking the heavy rail cannon (for 2x3+MW, TK(D3)) and also the missile pods for 2 attacks.
Command Deck upgrade to Manta.
Lower Manta cost to 575 points.
Shaos'o to FW/Shaos'o to FW but keeps crisis suit stats.
6 Path finders or 4 Pathfinders 2 Devil Fish option
Allow single AX-1-0 fir 175 points.
Reduce cost of 2 AX-1-0 to 325 points.
Give AT-stat on Plasma rifles to Crisis suits. Either AP4+/AT5 or AP4+/AT6+.
Tau crisis suit upgrade changed to + two units for 75 pts

Siege Masters/Imperial Fists:
Make Flak battery 150 points from current 100 points.
Bunkers become difficult terrain for WE:s with clarification that WE:s can't barge units out of bunkers.
Add no barging rule to trenches (se suggestion for bunkers).
Give Siege Masters access to Heavy tank platoon from DKoK in the Support section.

Tyranids:
Ignore one kill, for combat resolution purposes, in assaults per point of synapse in the formation.
Use EpicUK stats for Lictors.
Set cost for 4 Lictors to 150 points.
Increase DC by 1-2 points for some WE:s.
Adopt E-UK Tyranids into NetEA as Hive Fleet Fomori (or some other name). Tyranid names do not have to be consistent between Hive Fleets.
Reduce Broodlord to +25 points, remove extra attack
All bio-titan weapons 0-1x except claws (0-2x) and notes saying choose any two
Gargoyles gain IC on their FF
Drop the requirement that a swarm needs to start the game with a brood creature in order to spawn creatures of that type
Decrease extra Hormagaunt/Termagant cost to 15 points from current 20 points.
Genestealer swarm to 8 units base, +15 for extra
Increase Lictor Swarm size to 4 units base from current 3 units. Decrease price for extra lictors from current 50 points to 35 points.
Bio-titans down by 50 points each
IncreaseTrygon swarm size to 4 units base from current 3 units. Decrease cost of extra Trygons to 50 points each from current 65 points each.
Increase Trygon swarm size to 4 units base for +250 points, +60 for extra.
Trygons to +50 points as Tyranid Swarm extra.
Tyranid Malefactors should be allowed to carry Light Vehicles (taking up 2 spaces)

Eldar:

Change the rules for portals so that formations that enter or exit the board thru a broken Storm Serpent gets 1BM.
Void Spinner cost up 25 points.
Add rule that Farseers cannot summon avatar when broken.
Eldar Exarchs loose their extra attacks (only have Inspiring).
Change Cobra stats to EpicUK verision.
Lower Cobra to 225 points from current 250 points.
Take away the ”ignore void shields” fature from the Cobras weapons.
Increase scout fromations to 5 units for 150 pts.

Biel-Tan Eldar:
Add Mechanized Aspect Warrior Warhost, any six of the transportable aspects and 3 wave serpents, 0-1 exarch upgrade, 375 points


Dark Eldar:
Haemonculi upgrade to +100
Hellions upgrade to +50
Incubi upgrade to +75
Mandrakes upgrade to +75
Reavers upgrade to +50
Scourges upgrade to +75
Warp Beasts upgrade to +50
Warriors upgrade to +50
Wyches upgrade to +50

Necrons:
Add Wrath formation, six units, 300 points, no upgrades
Reduce wrath move to 15cm, give infiltrator

Lost and the Damned:
remove Factions
arch-heretic can be added to Daemon Prince
Replace Heavy Weapons on Chaos Marine Aspiring Champion with Autocannon
Reduce Hellfire Cannon to CC6+
Doomwing/Fire Lord Flame Cannon to 30cm 2x AP5+/AT6+/AA6+, IC, FxF
Khorne Daemonic Assault Engines down to 275 points
Plague Towers down to 300 points
Fire Lords, 250 for 2, +100 for 1 more

Stalker:
Increase the range of the Space Marine and CSM Stalker from 30cm to 45cm

5 minute warm-up rule:
a vote on whether we (this community) should work on providing a more detailed list for section 6.1.3 "The Five Minute Warm UP" with the goal of establishing best practises (both questions to be asked as well as suggested default answers). Goal would be to potentially reduce ambiguity and recognize differences in regional interpretation of rules. Best outcome would be that we could agree on some of these and make them official rules or internationally suggested best practices.

Summoning Daemons:
Rename and rewrite Summoned Units to Daemonic Pact:

A formation with Daemonic Pact is able to summon units into play from the Daemon Pool. Before the start of the game the player must declare the formation's allegiance to one of the gods of chaos (Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh or Tzeentch) or to Chaos Undivided, this determines the type of units that the formation may summon.

The Daemon Pool is an offboard area which the player uses to track the number of lesser and greater daemon units that may be summoned. How this is done (notes, counters, dice, etc.) is up to the player, but their opponent must always be able to inspect the contents of the pool. Units are removed from the pool when they are summoned into play and become a certain type of unit. Units are added to the pool when they are dismissed from play and become a greater or lesser daemon "marker". Summoned units that are destroyed are not added back into the Daemon Pool.

A formation with Daemonic Pact may summon units as part of carrying out an action. After declaring the action the formation will carry out but before taking an Action test the formation generates 2D3 "summoning points". These points may be used to immediately bring units into play from the Daemon Pool for their summoning posts cost. All units brought into play in this manner must be placed within 5cm of a unit from the formation that was there prior to summoning. These units may not be placed in enemy zones of control or in impassable terrain. Not all of the points available need to be used, but any leftover are discarded.

A formation's allegiance determines the types of units that the formation may summon and the summoning points cost for doing so. This is shown in the chart below, summoning point costs are in parentheses. Note that only one greater daemon of a particular type may be in play at any one time. Additionally, formations with an allegiance to Chaos Undivided may summon any greater and lesser daemon, but must pay a one summoning point surcharge to summon any lesser daemons apart from Daemonic Beasts.

|Faction|Greater Daemons (8)|Lesser Daemons (1)|
|Khorne|Bloodthirster|Bloodletters, Daemonic Beasts|
|Nurgle|Great Unclean One|Plaguebearers, Daemonic Beasts|
|Slaanesh|Keeper of Secrets|Daemonettes, Daemonic Beasts|
|Tzeentch|Lord of Change|Flamers, Daemonic Beasts|
|Chaos Undivided|Any|Any (see above)|

Summoned units become part of the formation that summoned them until they are dismissed. Summoned units are dismissed in the end phase of the turn in which they were summoned after all formations have rallied. Dismissed greater daemons keep their damage capacity, they will have the same damage capacity when they are summoned again. If a formation becomes broken while it contains summoned units then all summoned units are destroyed. Also note that a formation can break immediately upon dismissing summoned units if it has more Blaster markers than non-summoned units.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:46 pm 
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The voting closes on March the 14th. The results will be presented here.

After that we move into Step 2 which is a 12 week period of testing the suggestions that made it throught the Step 1 vote (not coordinated, it's up to the participants of the NDC to focus on the ones they feel is most urgent/viable/needed). In this step the rest of the community is very welcome in contributing with play tests and battle reports of the suggested changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:18 am 
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How can anyone quantify that the Imperial Fist/BSM flak battery are the same? yet a dkok flak battery of x3 hydras is 125 yet you want to increase the underpowered flak to 150? where and how do we vote on these ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:57 am 
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They don't allow the "normal people" to vote on, only those who do playtesting. If I understood correctly. Some of these ideas seem pretty bonkers and I also dislike the missing consistency (Demolisher gun on the Vindicator or different saves on the Preds for Chaos/Adeptus)

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:02 am 
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Largo_W wrote:
They don't allow the "normal people" to vote on, only those who do playtesting. If I understood correctly. Some of these ideas seem pretty bonkers and I also dislike the missing consistency (Demolisher gun on the Vindicator or different saves on the Preds for Chaos/Adeptus)


There is a vast difference between play testing and running these lists in tournies or competitive games. Seems ideas were created to buff some races and nerf others - particularly the Guard. Were any of the Guard ideas submitted by actual guard players? Bar the Bombard I think not. Are the Army Champions for those lists included in the closed forum also?


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:07 am 
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Junkstar, we don’t vote on these proposals, note some of which are different options.

They have been presented here to show what is being considered and tested globally by the NDC, comprising ~20 highly experienced players. If you have a concern, get some games in and post the results here to help show why the proposal is inappropriate. But do it quick, cos there is only a short window of opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:56 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Junkstar, we don’t vote on these proposals, note some of which are different options.

They have been presented here to show what is being considered and tested globally by the NDC, comprising ~20 highly experienced players. If you have a concern, get some games in and post the results here to help show why the proposal is inappropriate. But do it quick, cos there is only a short window of opportunity.



Then if we dont get a chance to vote perhaps the OP could give a breakdown of those in the forum of the armies which they personally champion/play.

Would at least like to see some normality/parity displayed. Hmm get some games in? ranked 5th in Europe and Germany - ok then.......luckily I have a tournament tomorrow isnt it


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Junkstar, we don’t vote on these proposals, note some of which are different options.

They have been presented here to show what is being considered and tested globally by the NDC, comprising ~20 highly experienced players. If you have a concern, get some games in and post the results here to help show why the proposal is inappropriate. But do it quick, cos there is only a short window of opportunity.


A concern that dkok hydra platforms cost 125 - 6 shots that the BSM blitzen 3 shots should go to 150 and what I can only assume is the Hyperios platform (autonomon rule so can keep firing despite BM's is classed as the same as the Blitzen? yes I'm even shocked that those ideas are being even considered - all that without the need for playtesting


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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:11 pm 
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junkstar wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Junkstar, we don’t vote on these proposals, note some of which are different options.

They have been presented here to show what is being considered and tested globally by the NDC, comprising ~20 highly experienced players. If you have a concern, get some games in and post the results here to help show why the proposal is inappropriate. But do it quick, cos there is only a short window of opportunity.


A concern that dkok hydra platforms cost 125 - 6 shots that the BSM blitzen 3 shots should go to 150 and what I can only assume is the Hyperios platform (autonomon rule so can keep firing despite BM's is classed as the same as the Blitzen? yes I'm even shocked that those ideas are being even considered - all that without the need for playtesting

As I understand it these are proposals, those that are voted for will then be playtested. IMO a lot of them will be rejected at this or at the testing stage.

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 Post subject: Re: Revitalizing the NetEA Community - a proposition for cha
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
junkstar wrote:
Ginger wrote:
Junkstar, we don’t vote on these proposals, note some of which are different options.

They have been presented here to show what is being considered and tested globally by the NDC, comprising ~20 highly experienced players. If you have a concern, get some games in and post the results here to help show why the proposal is inappropriate. But do it quick, cos there is only a short window of opportunity.


A concern that dkok hydra platforms cost 125 - 6 shots that the BSM blitzen 3 shots should go to 150 and what I can only assume is the Hyperios platform (autonomon rule so can keep firing despite BM's is classed as the same as the Blitzen? yes I'm even shocked that those ideas are being even considered - all that without the need for playtesting

As I understand it these are proposals, those that are voted for will then be playtested. IMO a lot of them will be rejected at this or at the testing stage.


But even by that 1 quick example, surely to the god emperor it should of been filtered out. In which case is there a thread/post as to where we can post more feasible ideas?


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