Tactical Command
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WE terrain and LoS
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34024
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Author:  Dave [ Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  WE terrain and LoS

I found this situation humorous.

A Knight is in the woods, further than 10cm from the edge. Another Knight is behind it, outside the woods.

The enemy Falcons can't see the Knight in the woods, yet it blocks LoS to the Knight behind it when they pop up.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

At the risk of asking a silly question, why can't the Knight in the woods be seen, and why is that having an impact on the one behind the woods?

Author:  Dave [ Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

The Knight in the woods is 10cm from the edge. Popped up or not, you can't see more than 10cm into terrain that blocks LoS.

THe Knight behind it can't be seen because it's closer to the Knight in the woods than the popped up Falcons.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

OK, I’ll rephrase that. We all know that there are differences in how the LoF rules are read and played, for area terrain. But if you’re playing that the woodland is ‘solid’, how is the Knight inside the woodland having any impact whatsoever on other LoF?

I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. :-(

Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

I've never encountered this, but I would I suppose treat the middle knight like I'd treat the wood itself - it's closer to the skimmers than the target is, so the popped up skimmers can see the target.

Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

But the basic question is really: Can popped up skimmers treat LOS-blocking War Engines like they treat LOS-blocking terrain, and see over them when popped up (if the distance stipulations are met) ?

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Evil and Chaos wrote:
But the basic question is really: Can popped up skimmers treat LOS-blocking War Engines like they treat LOS-blocking terrain, and see over them when popped up (if the distance stipulations are met) ?

I think it is perfectly reasonable to treat everything that can block LoF the same way for pop-ups, but I still don't understand how the woodland is being treated as tall enough to completely hide the intervening Knight, while at the same time is being treated as low enough that the intervening Knight 'sticks out' above the woodland to affect LoF separately from the woodland.

Author:  Kyrt [ Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Because there are multiple interacting but different terrain rules at work. It is commonly played that > 10cm into woods is just blocked line of fire, regardless of whether there is 'regular' line of fire, so the knight in woods cannot be seen.

Although actually if you read the rules it is written from the opposite side, i.e. it only says that buildings, woods etc don't block line of fire unless the unit is > 10cm in, rather than saying that they always block line of fire for units > 10cm in. So it comes down to how you choose to play line of sight, i.e. actual (the titan is taller than the tree) or abstracted (it's area terrain it always blocks).

Still, the situation is still possible either way - a knight in woods can be completely hidden from the shooting units and popup cannot help with seeing into terrain, only past it. Meanwhile, if the falcons popup the woods no longer blocks line of sight to the second knight, effectively taking the woods out of the equation. But the first knight still exists and so could still block line of sight. if it is closer to the target than the falcons. So long as you treat the woods and the knight as separate pieces. Think of it another way: there's a big building right in front of the falcons, then a smaller building hidden behind it, and the target right behind the small building. The falcons pop up so the big building doesn't block line of sight any more, but there is still a small building in the way blocking line of sight.

Except, I still wouldn't play it that way in this particular instance, because for me the knight and the woods are effectively one piece of LoS-blocking terrain, since one is inside the other. So I would treat the first knight as hidden, but allow the falcons to pop up over the whole thing to shoot the second knight.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Kyrt wrote:
Because there are multiple interacting but different terrain rules at work. It is commonly played that > 10cm into woods is just blocked line of fire, regardless of whether there is 'regular' line of fire, so the knight in woods cannot be seen.

Although actually if you read the rules it is written from the opposite side, i.e. it only says that buildings, woods etc don't block line of fire unless the unit is > 10cm in, rather than saying that they always block line of fire for units > 10cm in. So it comes down to how you choose to play line of sight, i.e. actual (the titan is taller than the tree) or abstracted (it's area terrain it always blocks).

That's partly what I was referring to, but I didn't want to restart furious thread-locking arguments about different countries playing LoS differently and who is 'right'. :(

It's more that LoS-blocking area terrain is usually done by treating the terrain area as being infinitely tall. Which would mean that the intervening Knight can't have any impact on LoS beyond the terrain piece.

Author:  Kyrt [ Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

IJW Wartrader wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Because there are multiple interacting but different terrain rules at work. It is commonly played that > 10cm into woods is just blocked line of fire, regardless of whether there is 'regular' line of fire, so the knight in woods cannot be seen.

Although actually if you read the rules it is written from the opposite side, i.e. it only says that buildings, woods etc don't block line of fire unless the unit is > 10cm in, rather than saying that they always block line of fire for units > 10cm in. So it comes down to how you choose to play line of sight, i.e. actual (the titan is taller than the tree) or abstracted (it's area terrain it always blocks).

That's partly what I was referring to, but I didn't want to restart furious thread-locking arguments about different countries playing LoS differently and who is 'right'. :(

It's more that LoS-blocking area terrain is usually done by treating the terrain area as being infinitely tall. Which would mean that the intervening Knight can't have any impact on LoS beyond the terrain piece.


Yeah it's a can of worms but how you play the terrain as true/not isn't the salient point though. I don't see how the infinite height makes a difference?

The point is they are both line of sight blockers, you don't need to be able to see all the intervening terrain for it to be intervening (eg my two buildings example - pop up over one, the second still blocks), and pop up ignores height anyway. If you pop up and are closer to the woods then the woods are removed from the equation, regardless of whether you are playing infinite height or true line of sight. Yet the point is, just because you can pop up to see over the woods, doesn't mean that you can automatically see over all the other terrain. In Dave's situation he is measuring distance to each piece of blocking terrain, and since at least one of them (the knight) is further away, then the falcons cannot see over it. There is definitely a RAW logic to it, even if it seems weird. I get that popup is trying to represent just being higher up which is why it might seem like the height of the terrain makes a difference (although remember also that they aren't really played as infinite, just higher than any unit) but that is not how the popup rule works.

Like I say though, personally I would count it as a single piece of terrain and pop up over the whole lot. Or to use an example, imagine it's one building inside a group of other buildings - you'd just count it as a single group of buildings.

Author:  IJW Wartrader [ Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Kyrt wrote:
Like I say though, personally I would count it as a single piece of terrain and pop up over the whole lot. Or to use an example, imagine it's one building inside a group of other buildings - you'd just count it as a single group of buildings.

I honestly can't see any justification in the rules for treating it differently than this, regardless of how the LoS rules are being played. There's only 'one' intervening item.

Your two buildings example isn't the same situation, unless they are both on the same base and being treated as one area of terrain.

Author:  Dan 1314 [ Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Oh Bravo, I love things like this.
Best the hypothetical if you had 5 Paladins in a Congo line, each 10cm apart, and the top palad in flush against the side of a building...... :) that's 50cm of hidden fun.

- In practice angles come into play. I've seen it a few times when smart players try to block war engines from firing, even a mm either side and there is an able to shoot (be it in cover)

Author:  Kyrt [ Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

IJW Wartrader wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
Like I say though, personally I would count it as a single piece of terrain and pop up over the whole lot. Or to use an example, imagine it's one building inside a group of other buildings - you'd just count it as a single group of buildings.

I honestly can't see any justification in the rules for treating it differently than this, regardless of how the LoS rules are being played. There's only 'one' intervening item.

Your two buildings example isn't the same situation, unless they are both on the same base and being treated as one area of terrain.

Maybe, but consider this:
A falcon is 10cm from the woods, and a warlord is 1 mm behind the woods (instead of being inside). A knight is behind the warlord, 11cm from the woods. The falcon pops up, and cannot see the warlord (because the warlord is closer to the woods). But the falcon can't see the knight either, because the warlord (which it cannot see) is blocking the view ;)

It's the same situation, just without the 'counts as a single piece of terrain' part :)

Fun times.

Author:  Imacie [ Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

if the warlord model is taller than the actual height of the trees you have as models then it doesn't matter where it is, in hte woods or behinds the woods, everything can see it its just obscured from a clear shot if in the woods. It also blocks LOS to anything shooting past it like a building wood :)

Author:  ffoley [ Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WE terrain and LoS

Isn't part of the problem here that for pop-ups we're measuring and comparing the distance from the shooter and from the target each to their respective nearest part of the intervening terrain. We should really be comparing the distance the shooter and the target are to a single point of the intervening terrain, specifically the part of it that is nearest the target (furthest from the shooter). The examples given above, though unusual, demonstrate why current practice is illogical

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