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MAYHEM expanded!

 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:13 am 
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MrGonzo wrote:
- Generals can't attack or be the target of an attack (unless they joined a unit) - does this include sorcery?
Could a Sorcerer General still cast Magic Missile, targeting an enemy unit or structure (and therefore be the target of a spell as well)?
Furthermore, what about 'non-attack' spells like Blink or Summon?


Any chance you could clarify this one please? :)

We'll having our first 250 Crowns game this evening and i am planning to use a Sorcerer General, if he's allowed to cast Magic Missile (or spells in general). ;)


bombshell games wrote:
For each section that a stronghold contains, a player is able to purchase up to that number of upgrades. Think of the sections as the total available slots for abilities/upgrades. Almost all the upgrades [with the noted exception of war machines] benefit the entire structure and not a particular section.

So, your entire Tzeentch stronghold will benefit from the powers of levitation and locomotion! ;D


Thanks, got that! :)
Though i still don't see how it's best done modelling wise.

For example, i came across this fantastic conversion by a french Epic player i would like to try myself and use for a Chaos/Daemon themed Mayhem army.
As it would consist of only one base (40x40mm for 6mm scale) i just don't see how i could model additional sections to it without it looking forced.

Does this make more sense?

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Quote:
Any chance you could clarify this one please? :)

Ha! Sorry about that. :-[

Quote:
Generals can't attack or be the target of an attack (unless they joined a unit) - does this include sorcery?
Could a Sorcerer General still cast Magic Missile, targeting an enemy unit or structure (and therefore be the target of a spell as well)?

It does include sorcery. So, direct damage and direct attack spells may not be used unless the general has joined a unit or was created as a heroic unit. The latter would be very dangerous for the general! If I were going to make my general with a direct damage build in mind, then I would probably just fully commit do it as a monstrous creature or monstrous mount! >:D

As you already noted, spells link blink, barrier, summon, and time stop could be used without any problem by a general. A battle sorcerer could even control constructs and/or bound behemoths to deal direct damage [even spell damage if you're really sneaky!] without issue.

Another quick note, a hero sorcerer is able to attack other heroes that haven't joined a unit. Only generals are bound and protected by the non-attack rules.

Good luck later!


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Thanks, got that! :)
Though i still don't see how it's best done modelling wise.

For example, i came across this fantastic conversion by a french Epic player i would like to try myself and use for a Chaos/Daemon themed Mayhem army.
As it would consist of only one base (40x40mm for 6mm scale) i just don't see how i could model additional sections to it without it looking forced.

Does this make more sense?

For the model and conversion in question, here's what I would do:

If I were going to have a stronghold that consisted of 4 sections, then I would make an 80x80 scenic base and center the model on it. You could then just assign the upgrades and would meet the size requirement without having to force the modeling. You could even put various troops on the ground around it to represent defenders, archers, champions, etc., or just to reinforce the theme of your army or make it look more epic. ;D

My view on miniatures in my games, especially centerpieces, is that players should give each other latitude where creativity is concerned. So, I would even let you bring just the single 40x40 base in friendly games as long as you didn't go crazy with the upgrades and weren't attempting to game the system. For competitive groups and optimal balance, the first method I mentioned would be the way to go.

Very cool conversion BTW!


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:12 pm 
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Ah, so i'd just use a 80x80mm base and split it in for sections!
Haven't thought about that at all! haha ::)

Problem solved, thanks a lot! :)


PS: We already took pictures of our last game which i haven't had time to prepare yet.
Will take shots of our game tonight and publish them together somewhere here. Maybe able to take notes for a small battle report! *which i am not great at, but i see what i can come up with ;)

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:36 pm 
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Problem solved, thanks a lot! :)

No worries! That's what I'm here for. ;)

Quote:
PS: We already took pictures of our last game which i haven't had time to prepare yet.
Will take shots of our game tonight and publish them together somewhere here. Maybe able to take notes for a small battle report! *which i am not great at, but i see what i can come up with ;)

Excellent! I'm looking forward to this. ;D


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Yeah, lets do this! I love stuff like this. Even if he declines in the end. All the planning work can be transfered.

;D

Quote:
Some Designations like Elite require some more complex logic. Mainly to identify the exact same units. The easiest way would be an amount-of-this-unit box.

Using a 'duplicate unit' button/function on the front end of the creation process in the interface would make employing the logic much easier for elites.

Mr.Gonzo's idea for the for the Cp die calculator is a good one. You could also add a Game Aid for determining counters and calculating the breaking points. Simple stuff, but nice additions I think.

Quote:
That yould be the case, I asume. Selling it with book could be problematic if he made it for free or a very low price. We will have to discuss about licensing issues anyway.

I'm super easy to work with on this sort of thing, so just let me know what you're thinking. I'm all about reducing barriers to getting cool things like this out there and appreciate the support. Depending on which direction we end up going, I may even have a few options that you hadn't considered. ;)

Quote:
How would you like a printable layout for you army? With or without weapon stats list? A spell list? Or should we make Spellcards and tokens to print for yourself?

For you typical army list sheets, I think that having the unit name and stat line with weapons and counters listed would be perfect. A traditional PDF printout would have more than enough room to print this out in a clean, clear, and concise format.

If looking at printing out to a card format as well, then I may be able to come up with a mock-up in photoshop that could be used as a template to export to. I'll mess around with some formats later this evening.

I'm liking the direction of your mock-up sketch BTW.


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:58 pm 
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As promised, some pictures from our latest game. ;)

The Scenario: With the Ewoks having fled, it’s left to Warboss Uzteef(Orks) to defend Endor from an attack by the Empire.(Mr Gonzo’s Star Wars Krieg) Let battle Commence!

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Warboss Uzteefs boyz gets ready to defend Endor.

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The two armies line up against each other.

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An AT-AT(Giant) on the March

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Some Gretchin(infantry, CQ d20) show an AT-ST(behemoth, CQd10) whose boss, rolling a 1 and a 2 in succession. Ouch!

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Some Speeders(scout/fast cavalry) make use of their scout position to get a great flanking shot on some Battlewagons(Chariot), rolling a 1. Boom!

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Darth Vadar(top centre unit) sets fire to the forest. Burn them all!

Was a good game, though Lady luck was definitely in my favour this time round! In the 2nd turn my warbike cavalry hit the AT-AT(Giant), killing him in a single blow when Mr Gonzo opted to danger roll and rolled a 10. Following that, Mr Gonzo sent his Behemoth AT-ST’s to attack my weak flank with the Gretchin, only for the Gretchin(CQ20) to wipe them out, rolling a 1 and a 2 in consecutive combats!

It looked all over for the Empire, but Mr Gonzo rallied well, taking out my Battlewagons with his speeders, before his stormtroopers used a good flank attack to dispose of my Gutrippa tanks. In the end, it was only a confusion over the Garrison rules that prevented a famous comeback when Darth Vader set fire to the Forest that contained most the Ork Army!

(We ruled that units could enter all terrain normally but also ‘choose’ to Garrison them to get the bonuses. This was partly a way to deal with our rather large terrain, but in retrospect it didn’t really work and it would be better to have terrain that was either Garrisonable/not. I take it this was the original intention in the rules.)

Things I learnt:
Volley fire is awesome.
Scouting Fast cavalry is very nice indeed
Overdrive mechanics seem to support comebacks/turnarounds well, with the player with less units getting to do more with each, which I like ;)

A good game, and as before some rule questions that came up:
1) Is it really possible to kill a behemoth/monstrous creature in a single hit?(I admit it’s tough to do!) I was sure that danger rolls only happened to an already injured Behemoth, but couldn’t find it in the rules.
2) Do Flying units with range weapons get an extra dice in ranged attacks from height advantage? Units on hills get a ranged elevation bonus, and flying units get the elevation bonus in melee, so it would make sense even if it isn’t explicitly stated. (I’m hoping this is a yes)
3) When I charge into/out of terrain, does the roll DV+1 dice and pick the lowest take precedent over the 2d6 pick the highest? This is how we played it

Cheers,
Mark

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:51 am 
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Okay, let me just start by saying that seeing an AT-AT stomping across the battlefield and...
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Darth Vadar burning the forest of Endor in a game of MAYHEM
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made me very happy!! :D ;D

Quote:
Things I learnt:
Volley fire is awesome.
Scouting Fast cavalry is very nice indeed
Overdrive mechanics seem to support comebacks/turnarounds well, with the player with less units getting to do more with each, which I like ;)

I agree on all counts. The last point about Overdrive is especially true. As you begin to whittle away at an opponent's force, their being forced to use Overdrive on fewer units shifts the focus of the game and can make for some great comebacks. Overdrive keeps people in the game. ;)

Quote:
1) Is it really possible to kill a behemoth/monstrous creature in a single hit?(I admit it’s tough to do!) I was sure that danger rolls only happened to an already injured Behemoth, but couldn’t find it in the rules.

It's possible [and tough!], but when it does happen, it's usually pretty epic stuff. As for the rule you were looking for, check out the third bullet point on page 7 in the second column:

'Anytime that a unit with the damage trait has a damage token placed on it, then it must make a damaged roll'

If I understand your description, then you played it correctly. Him rolling that 10 in CQ meant he was pretty much finished then-and there! Even if you had only rolled a 5 then the odds were seriously against him. As I'm sure you both realized after that, giant are pretty vulnerable once troops get in direct base contact with them [with the exception of behemoths and other monstrous creatures]. I tend to support them with some infantry and let them smash things at range. Oh, don't forget about them causing terror either!

Quote:
2) Do Flying units with range weapons get an extra dice in ranged attacks from height advantage? Units on hills get a ranged elevation bonus, and flying units get the elevation bonus in melee, so it would make sense even if it isn’t explicitly stated. (I’m hoping this is a yes)

It's a yes! As long as you're not targeting another flyer, then you have a height advantage relative to your target.

Quote:
3) When I charge into/out of terrain, does the roll DV+1 dice and pick the lowest take precedent over the 2d6 pick the highest? This is how we played it

To charge through terrain, you would have to pay the additional cost for the DV of the terrain to avoid having to take the lowest value. Since the two rules directly oppose one another mechanically, you would have to get rid of the penalty [by paying the cost]. Make sense?

Great looking game- thanks for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:44 am 
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"It's a yes! As long as you're not targeting another flyer, then you have a height advantage relative to your target.
To charge through terrain, you would have to pay the additional cost for the DV of the terrain to avoid having to take the lowest value. Since the two rules directly oppose one another mechanically, you would have to get rid of the penalty [by paying the cost]. Make sense?"


Thanks for quick reply! Makes perfect sense. I'd recommend these two be explicitly stated in future updates - makes it easier for slow people like me he he

And +1 for the online army builder. Would be a great resource for Mayhem, and make it easier for new people getting into the game.

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks for quick reply! Makes perfect sense. I'd recommend these two be explicitly stated in future updates - makes it easier for slow people like me he he

I'm plan on compiling a small FAQ document for items like these [specifically the charging through difficult terrain question]. My games tend to have several levels of interaction and interdependency that in play or via 'face to face' explanation are easy to see and understand, but it makes writing the rules themselves more difficult without constantly making forward references to 'future' rules. Terrain usually falls into this category no matter the game system or designer as it can affect and interact with almost all the other rules.

As this one requires terrain, charging, and movement through terrain rules, I think having a FAQ or 'After your first few games' document will make it easier to digest and will make more sense after actually using the mechanics in play. If you come up with any more questions, tips for new players, or interactions like this, then please don't hesitate to let me know! ;D


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:40 am 
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Battle report

My wife played the Imperial Expedition Force and I took controll over the Undead Hordes.

Army lists:
Imperial Expedition Force
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =715302961

Undead Egytian Army
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =741337847

I hope I made no mistakes :D

Set Up:
Image

First Round:

We both got 10 Cp.

The Imperial Forces advanced with the entire front. The undead Hordes advanced as well with their infantry at the center and the cavalry on their left flank. As soon as the Skelletons came into reach all Crossbowman opened fire. And while the first shots missed the target, the second hit the cavalry but didn’t do any damage.
After that the Death Vultures used the cover of the pyramid to move behind enemy lines.

Second Round:
Image

My Wife got 10 Cp again and I got 5 Cp for the Undead.
First action of round two was reforming the elite crossbowman to face the danger of the Vultures. After that my Skelleton Riders danger moved forward to drive into the crossbowmen (should have used charge but forgot about it.) and fell way to short on their roll. Only 2 inch. A chance the crossbowman used. Hit, critical strike - First casualty of the match.

Image

The central skelleton block advanced slowly forward. Only to be countered by a unit of mad pilgrims. They attacked the skelletons and used their great weapons to cause an disorder token. As a reaction the undead vultures stomred right into the back of the left pikemen unit. They annihilated the unit with a critical strike - and the fight nearly ended here, as we forgot the CQ roll of the pikemen - As soon as I remembered my wife about it, she rolled a one! Another critical strike!

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Third Round:
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My Wife got 9 Cp and I got 6 CP

She started with the fight between the prilgrims and my center skelletons. Without much effort they crushed my unit with another critical strike.
That left me with only two skelleton warrior units. As I saw no real chance of victory I engaged with the pikemen on the left. The fight was short and brutal as both sides rolled a critical strike and were removed from play.

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Amused my wife send her mad pilgrims against my last unit and deintegrated them with, who would have thought, with a critical strike.

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With that my army was wiped out and my wife happy.

The game short and brutal but fun. I completly ignored my sorccerer but in hindside i should have used him. Having no shooters was also a big mistake. Well, there is always a next time.
The first round was rocky and had a lot of rules checking. But i got better very fast. A lot of the basic prinziples apply even in higher mechanics. That make the rules very easy to learn.

What I need for the next match. Damage and Disorder Tokens. More dice besides d10. Special colored d4 for magic.

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:23 am 
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It looks like you had a fun game [or your wife did at least!]. That was some pretty impressive rolling she put on display- high rolls for command and low rolls for combat.

I'm pretty sure that you played most things correctly from what I can tell. I assume that you were rolling enough dice on Command rolls for all the standards in your army and applying the combat bonuses for being on the flank and/or rear. ;)

Now that you have a game under your belt, it's time to unleash the sorcerer! >:D


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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:42 am 
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bombshell games wrote:
If you come up with any more questions, tips for new players, or interactions like this, then please don't hesitate to let me know! ;D


Thanks for being so active here and your patience with our learning curve, Mr Spivey! ;D

Here's another one for you:
- Are generals/heroes able to flee into a keep? (after being forced to run by an enemy unit)

DasBilligeAlien wrote:
Battle report

My wife played the Imperial Expedition Force and I took controll over the Undead Hordes.

Army lists:
Imperial Expedition Force
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =715302961

Undead Egytian Army
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =741337847

I hope I made no mistakes :D


Thanks for the report and sounds like both of you had a great (first?) game! The dice gods clearly favoured her, haha

Also many thanks for posting your army lists!
I am very interested in seeing how other people use the army builder rules and what combos they come up with. It's easy ending up in a 'local meta bubble'! ;)

One thought i had after our recent (and third) game was just how much equipment/traits a general actually needs?!
Naturally you don't want your general anywhere near danger to prevent an assassination and in none of your (limited number of) games was there any danger to them.
So would it be better to build them with a rather low QR/BAR like D12 or D20 and no weapons/traits and use the points for your fighting units?
*Though a good move stat is needed to prevent enemy units running him over

On the other hand, MarkW gave his general a standard last game which i though was a genius idea! :)

Anyway, here are some more impressions of our 'Battle for Endor' game! :)

Note: As we both don't have our proper based fantasy armies ready yet, we agreed on using 40x20mm base measurements. Our gaming board is 30inch square.
We are also working on more forest terrain for the club, haha

Attachment:
File comment: Deployment Phase
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File comment: The forces clash.
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File comment: 5 min later i am defeated, haha
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As MarkW already written, i lost this game terribly to his superior generalship aka amazing dice rolling! Haha
I also cheated, as i thought my general is able to attack neutral structures with his fiery light saber.

Here's my 200 crowns list, which in hindsight was no good:

‘Vader’s Iron Fist_v1’

Leadership D 12 - 5

Vader (General) - 0
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D10 - 5
Sword - 1
Shield - 1
Fire - 3
Fear - 3
21

Stormtrooper (Infantry)
MOV D4 - 1
CQ D12 - 3
BAR D12 - 3
Short Bow - 6
Standard - 3
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
19

Stormtrooper (Infantry)
MOV D4 - 1
CQ D12 - 3
BAR D12 - 3
Short Bow - 6
Standard - 3
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
19

Supertrooper (Elite Infantry)
MOV D4 - 1
CQ D12 (10) - 3
BAR D12 (10) - 3
Short Bow - 6
Standard - 3
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
Fearless - 0
+1 RA die (not damage) - 0
19

Speederbikes (Fast Cavalry) - 4
MOV D10 - 7
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Scout - 6
Crossbow - 7
32

AT-ST (Behemoth) - 6
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D10 - 5
Heavy Crossbow - 8
Fire - 3
Fear - 0
Beat Back - 0
30

AT-AT (Monstrous Creature)
Giant - 44
Hero - 6
50

/////
195

Don't remember what i spend the last 5 crowns on. :D

An army builder would be sooo handy! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:11 pm 
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*sorry for the double post, felt the first post got to long

And some impressions of the last game with my Thousand Sons versus MarkW's Squats! :)

Attachment:
Mayhem-04.jpg
Mayhem-04.jpg [ 652.27 KiB | Viewed 2369 times ]


And the list, with slightly odd 263 crowns.

‘Thousand Sons’

Leadership D12 - 5

Ahriman (Sorcerer/General) - 8
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D12 - 3
BAR D12 - 3
Sword - 1
Shield - 1
19

Spells
Blink - 6
6

Tactical Marines (Infantry)
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Blowgun - 5
Shield - 1
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
20

Tactical Marines (Infantry)
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Blowgun - 5
Shield - 1
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
20


Terminators (Elite/Infantry)
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D10 (8) - 5
BAR D12 (10) - 3
Blowgun - 5
Shield - 1
Musician - 1
Disciplined - 2
Fearless - 0
+1 RA die (not damage) - 0
20

Assault Marines (Flyer) - 3
MOV D10 - 7
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Swords - 1
Shields - 1
Heroic - 6
26

Devastators (Infantry)
MOV D6 - 5
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Long Bows - 9
Shields - 1
23

Predator (War Machine)
Cannon - 36
36

Dreadnought (Behemoth) - 6
MOV D4 - 1
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D10 - 5
Repeating Crossbow - 10
Fear - 0
Beat Back - 0
Damage - 0
27

Scouts (Scouts) - 6
MOV D8 - 5
CQ D10 - 5
BAR D12 - 3
Axes - 2
21

Venerable Dreadnought (Heroic Skirmisher) - 7
MOV D6 - 3
CQ D8 - 9
BAR D10 - 5
Great Weapons - 2
26

There was something else that got me up to 263 Crowns, which i can't remember right now :P
Lacked the time to rewrite it on the day to get the list down to 250, but MarkW's been very kind by agreeing on the rather odd points level. :)

Most Valuable Unit was the heroic skirmisher who took out three enemy units in three consecutive turns!
Pricy, but the freedom of movement of heroic skirmisher combined with QR D8 and great weapons is the bomb! >:D
For 7 CP it moves twice (one action being a charge) which should covers 6-9 inch on average (with no rotation or terrain restrictions), ending up in the enemy's flank and initiating a melee with with 3 D4. 75% change of rolling a natural 1! Muahaha

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 Post subject: Re: MAYHEM expanded!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:41 am 
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Quote:
Thanks for being so active here and your patience with our learning curve, Mr Spivey! ;D

My pleasure!

Quote:
Are generals/heroes able to flee into a keep? (after being forced to run by an enemy unit)

I'm afraid not. Strongholds and keeps are not garrisonable by any units. :(

Quote:
One thought i had after our recent (and third) game was just how much equipment/traits a general actually needs?!

Quote:
So would it be better to build them with a rather low QR/BAR like D12 or D20 and no weapons/traits and use the points for your fighting units?

These are good questions, and this topic is one of the fun 'game within the game' aspects that I personally really enjoy. How to build, protect, and attack a general will become more important as your strategies and tactics evolve. Gear and equipment aside, here are a few approaches:

1. Build a unit for the express purpose of staying next to your general [in default move range] as his primary escape when things go wrong. It protects the general and the unit.
2. Create a general that no enemy would want to have join a unit because he is just too nasty! >:D While this can tie up some points, it can act as a great deterrent when done properly.
3. The method you already mentioned with the low stat/point build is great. If going this route, then sometimes it's best to just totally commit and use the d20 for CQ and BAR! It can be scary, but it makes a bold statement to your opponent and can even act as bait to tempt him in to doing something unwise.
4. Blink, barrier, and time stop can make trying to approach a general an exercise in frustration. I'll say nothing more! ;)

On a related subject, if you create a unit [fast cav, flyer, scout, etc.] for your army to act as a 'general hunter', then you can pressure your opponent early and force him to focus on protecting his own general. Keeping an army moving while actively protecting a general creates plenty of multitasking challenges for most players without them trying to focus on your general as well.

Quote:
On the other hand, MarkW gave his general a standard last game which i though was a genius idea! :)

Well played! 8)

Quote:
Ahriman...

Just saw the blink spell- nice.

As you mentioned after your second game, heroic skirmishers can really shine, offer a lot of freedom, and are almost always worth the points. I like to use this profile for the epic characters in my force [like Vadar]. In your first list, you could have made Vadar a heroic skirmisher and made a d20 CQ/BAR 'Emperor General'. Obviously, I would keep the name Vadar's Iron Fist. The Emperor is on his way out anyway! :D

Also, I didn't see any stats for the pint... ::)


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