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Living Metal feedback

 Post subject: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:49 pm 
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I'm mostly interested in games using the new EUK Living Metal rules.

- The main thing is Macro-Weapons vs Monoliths. It's were I predict the EUK change is going to have the biggest impact. Did you as an opponent think that targeting Monoliths with MWs was just enough to keep them under control? Did you find them easy/hard to take down? As a Necron player, did you think your Monoliths were destroyed too quickly when facing a good amount of MW attacks? Or did enough survive even though they were targeted with MW?

- Of secondary is the multiple Titan Killer damage allowed vs small war engines (Pylon, C'tan, Warbarque). Do they die too quickly? Or are they survivable enough?

- Big harvesters are tertiary. Any feedback on the effect of the new LM on them is welcome, but I think any change to LM should be based on the effect on Monoliths and Pylons. Harvesters can be adjusted in other ways if necessary.

I'll keep this thread stickied at least until we review the list for the 2014 Army Compendium - I don't believe that NetEA LM should be changed this year. Feel free to convince me otherwise!


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
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in my one game against EUK necrons I found LM was more than enough protection for the monoliths against my volcano cannons.... I only managed to kill 2 of them before deciding they were a waste of valuable TK shots, which I put to use in blowing up as many obelisks as possible.....

I can see NetEA LM being considered in this way, I would certainly avoid pumping my precious shots into them, and would try to focus on the infantry coming out of them.... much the same way that unless I get a clear shot on an unshielded warlord/gargant, I won't even bother firing at it, except to put a blast marker on it

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:34 pm 
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In my last game with Necrons, last month, I took four formations of three Monoliths. 9 of the 12 were destroyed by my opponents Space Marines from a combination of shooting and engagements. The remaining three were from two different formations which were broken at the end of the last turn and phased out. I could have had any number of saves and I still would have lost lots as couldn't roll consistantly high.


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:02 pm 
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On the MW vs Monoliths issue, I'm currently playing Necrons casually (i.e. outside of tournaments) using the EUK list

I tend to use 8 Monoliths and either a Warbarque or the Abbatoir (depending on points). there tends to not be a great deal of MW shooting in most armies, and the only times I've lost the majority of my Monoliths were during those sort of games when rolling anything above a 3 seems impossible ;-).

That said I am wary of Teleporting Monoliths/Pylons within doubling range/LOS of anything with decent MW shooting (Warhounds, Revenants, The MW armed Eldar Grav Tank (Scorpion?)), but there again is it really right that you're teleporting infront of a Titan with inpunity?


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:42 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
in my one game against EUK necrons I found LM was more than enough protection for the monoliths against my volcano cannons.... I only managed to kill 2 of them before deciding they were a waste of valuable TK shots, which I put to use in blowing up as many obelisks as possible.....

I can see NetEA LM being considered in this way, I would certainly avoid pumping my precious shots into them, and would try to focus on the infantry coming out of them.... much the same way that unless I get a clear shot on an unshielded warlord/gargant, I won't even bother firing at it, except to put a blast marker on it


I'd echo this, as a fairly regular opponent of Necrons, as it's been my experience too. I don't get many MW shots - most armies don't and I tend to reserve them for the infantry coming out of the portals. Trying to kill Monoliths before they can deploy warriors etc is a waste of time. Fearless is also big bonus for Monoliths and when combined with TRA and LM makies them easily the best vehicles for survivability in the game. Which brings me to another point, LM shouldn't be taken in isolation. LM vehicles have an array of abilities that protect them from harm - no hackdown hits is a real kicker for me as I mostly play marines and various flavours of Eldar. The fact that portals can still be used even if a fm is broken also quite often puts me off shooting at them as it means the Necron player gets a free 30 cm move closer to me in my activation!

Just how many TK weapons are out there too? My Eldar and Space marine armies don't have any. Even Guard don't have an overabundance: 2 shadowswords for e.g. cost 400 pts for two shots. These are most certainly of limited value when playing against Necrons and even with the EUK changes it's often a waste to shoot at LM with MW and TK shots (Better to shoot the faster units without LM and hope to break the small monolith fms in turn 3).

That being said I did once manage a jammy BTS kill on a warbarque with an eldar spaceship pinpoint attack. Pretty risky move given that it was 150pts for a less than 50% chance that I'd do 1-3 points of damage but it was pretty sweet when it worked. 8)

It's also worth noting that it's not just monoliths that have LM. Pylons needs to be shut down and quickly vs Necrons. Especially as most armies tend to include some sort of air assault. Hell even one sat on OW on an objective is a bugger. This soaks up quite a lot of firepower that would otherwise be directed at the monoliths and other portals. Even though they do break quite easily, they have an annoying habit of sticking around (Largely due to LM and fearless), meaning that they keep rallying and having to be re-broken, continually sucking in firepower and diverting resources away from portal units throughout the entire game. Pylons also outrange all other TK shots with the exeption of deathstrikes. If you want to shoot a Pylon that's unbroken and on overwatch, you're going to get TK-ed in the face before you get to take your shot.

I really can't understand the posters who regularly state the opinion that EUK LM is a massive nerf too far. I'd love to see what armies they're playing against, whether they're using tournament take all comers lists or tailoring vs Necrons, what type of tactics they use and how much terrain is on the table because it's just not been my experience at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:52 am 
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Feedback from 4 EUK players, no NetEA players, heh.

For what it's worth, I have no real issues with the NetEA list. Have yet to play the EUK list.

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:20 am 
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Hehehe, that is quite amusing.

We all play with and against Necrons on a fairly regular basis though so feedback is easy to give.


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:24 am 
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plus, Ulrik did say he was mostly interested in feedback from EUK players....... just sayin'

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:57 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
plus, Ulrik did say he was mostly interested in feedback from EUK players....... just sayin'


Yup, it's the EUK players testing the "proposed change", so I want to hear what they're experiences are.

Two things:

- Remember that TK is the same vs Monoliths both in NetEA and EUK - a 4+ save. It's non-TK Macro Weapons where there is a difference. Armies with little MW is not the once most affected by this - I'm looking forward to seeing how EUK Necrons do against MW-heavy armies like Eldar with Revenants.

- Monoliths are very tough for their points. They're also very critical units for the army, so I think that targeting them even if they feel "unkillable" is a good idea - the infantry which does the actual killing is either stranded in reserves or stuck moving around the table at 15cm. I think this is were the wariness of the EUK downgrade is coming from - we've seen canny opponents destroy our Monoliths with the current LM and what it does to the army, what happens if they have a helping of MWs to help out?

Final note: The EUK change doesn't affect Lance at all, as EUK LM doesn't have anything to do with Reinforced Armor. I'm guessing it's not too bad as Eldar have plenty of other ways to deal with Monoliths (Falcons, massed FF attacks, triple retain), but it hurts Fire Prisms.

Keep the feedback coming, especially after the first tournament and again when they've been to a few tournaments and opponents get to know them :)


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:03 am 
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On Pylons: They are tough, but as you say easily broken. The main part that makes them easy to handle is that after they're broken, they'll never be more than a single attack by a Vyper away from being broken again. If you teleport them in (to cover objectives), it's likely that half of them will have one BM.

They're also the only source of AA and ranged TK attacks available, and it's not feasible to spam them (war engines and support formations).

If I were a Marine Player with T-Hawks I'd much rather see two Pylons than a formation of Nightwings.


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:15 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
plus, Ulrik did say he was mostly interested in feedback from EUK players....... just sayin'


Yup, it's the EUK players testing the "proposed change", so I want to hear what they're experiences are.

Two things:

- Remember that TK is the same vs Monoliths both in NetEA and EUK - a 4+ save. It's non-TK Macro Weapons where there is a difference. Armies with little MW is not the once most affected by this - I'm looking forward to seeing how EUK Necrons do against MW-heavy armies like Eldar with Revenants.



not quite true..... against a TK shot, a netEA monolith will only ever need to make a single save as all TK hits are reduced to TK(1), an EUK monolith however will have to save each point of damage, so is more likely to be destroyed by something doing multiple hits

which IMO is a great way of representing the different 'levels' of firepower, each type of weapon is better in some way than the previous type....

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:24 am 
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EUK fire prisms are sucky at ground attack anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:26 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
not quite true..... against a TK shot, a netEA monolith will only ever need to make a single save as all TK hits are reduced to TK(1), an EUK monolith however will have to save each point of damage, so is more likely to be destroyed by something doing multiple hits


I'm pretty sure multiple damage only comes into play against non-WEs? Hasn't this been covered before (characters with Invulnerable vs TK)?


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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:44 am 
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you are correct, my apologies, I missed the 'war engine' bit there....

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 Post subject: Re: Living Metal feedback
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:45 am 
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Playing regularily against EUK necrons my tactic is to keep my distance and target the units coming out, there is no point, until turn 3, in targetting the monoliths unless you can kill the whole formation. Breaking them is pointless as the portal can still be used and they can then phase out, rally easier and then reposition via teleport.

Last night MikeT had 3 formations of 3 monoliths, I only targetted them once when 4 railgun hheads+skyray (singling), 4 railgun hheads (singling) and 4 crisis suits in an orca (singling) could all target a formation in succession. All markerlit they wiped out that formation with 13 normal hits+2 MW.

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