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Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist

 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Somewhat later than planned, v0.2.1 is up now.

A summary sheet is here (I couldn't work out how to get 2 files in one post  :sulk: )

Edit: I had a thumb through the Codex on Saturday, and aside from feeling the codex creep hanging over the book like a bad smell I think I'm not a million miles away, even with the silly wolf riders.

The loss of the Leman Russ Exterminator is confrimed :(





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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:41 am 
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Interesting stuff. Just flicked through. First impression is there isn't really any need to take grey hunters in an army. Second is its not very hordy. Currently I think I would be better served by taking a BL legion army painted as wolves if I wanted to get a Grey hunter horde going on (with oblits as long fangs etc). Then again am i wrong, are they no longer the marine horde?

You have optimised the blood claws for thunderhawk deployment, which is perhaps a curious choice.

Terminators drop podding is a nice idea, however it might be something to seperately cost them for this as 99 times out of a hundred you are better thunderhawking/landing craft them in.

Why take thunderwolves over regular bikes? Or is it intended to be another thunderhawk optimised load out? (4 cavalry plus 4 wolves/8 cavalry)

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:56 am 
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Not sure I've ever thought of Space Wolves as being especially a horde army and I used to game with one.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Also doesn't the idea of large formations with ATSKNF running around bother anyone....


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Indeed it does, hence it being a problem :) One way of showing it would be to have a compulsory unit with commander in every formation ala Chaos or Imperial guard to show warbands combining and splitting up as the need dictates.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ Sep. 22 2009, 12:02 )

Also doesn't the idea of large formations with ATSKNF running around bother anyone....

Yes, that's also my main complaint against the Black Templars list.

ATSKNF is a rule designed to balance out the small formations of codex marines. With larger formations, the marines become worth a lot more per bases as ATSKNF makes large formations basically unbreakable.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Answering TRCs questions...

Quote: 

Interesting stuff. Just flicked through. First impression is there isn't really any need to take grey hunters in an army. Second is its not very hordy. Currently I think I would be better served by taking a BL legion army painted as wolves if I wanted to get a Grey hunter horde going on (with oblits as long fangs etc). Then again am i wrong, are they no longer the marine horde?


As others have said I'm not sure it is really a horde list...

Quote: 

You have optimised the blood claws for thunderhawk deployment, which is perhaps a curious choice.


There was actually some logic here, that back when I initially wrote the list the Long Fangs were a separate formation, and we had nice progressively smaller formations (Blood Claws 8, Grey Hunters 6, Long Fangs 4) representing the 'Packs' staying together but being whittled down by casualties / members becoming scouts or Wolf Guard.
It's also (imho) a worse Thunderhawk load out than 2 lots of Assault Marines (even if you take the Jump Packs) as you can only have one Hero.

Quote: 

Terminators drop podding is a nice idea, however it might be something to seperately cost them for this as 99 times out of a hundred you are better thunderhawking/landing craft them in.


Don't you think that's going to get over-complicated with the Superior Tactics Rule 'Well, I can drop pod or thunderhawk this formation as I see fit, but I bought the cheaper version of my elite guys so can only do x with them'?

Quote: 

Why take thunderwolves over regular bikes? Or is it intended to be another thunderhawk optimised load out? (4 cavalry plus 4 wolves/8 cavalry)


I personally think they are a bit daft and they're only really in the list with approximate stats, if someone likes them and wants to develop them further that would be great  :agree:


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Sep. 22 2009, 12:02 )

Really I thought all their squads bar the long fangs were larger than regular marines and couldn't split down. Plus past Epic interactions of them had them with larger formations?

Space Wolves in 40k are generally the most expensive Marine army point-for-point, so although your squads may be larger, your overall army has less models in it than any other comparable Marine army.


So Space Wolves are an 'elite' Marine army, not a 'horde' army.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Zombo; That's partly why I've made the biggest formation 8 marine stands strong, you're also sacrificing activations and access to characters to get these formations (and the scouts are more expensive, reducing access to cheap activations to compensate)


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:31 pm 
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How about moving away from the magic number 8/multiples of 4? That ensures that the whole pile in a thawk strategy is less viable and makes you consider different strategies.

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 22 2009, 14:16 )

Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Sep. 22 2009, 12:02 )

Really I thought all their squads bar the long fangs were larger than regular marines and couldn't split down. Plus past Epic interactions of them had them with larger formations?

Space Wolves in 40k are generally the most expensive Marine army point-for-point, so although your squads may be larger, your overall army has less models in it than any other comparable Marine army.


So Space Wolves are an 'elite' Marine army, not a 'horde' army.

That's not necessarily true. While you're paying several more points per marine (discounting stuff like Wolf Guard Terminator heavy weapon spam), the infantry is good enough that you can take more of it in lieu of other stuff that other Marines might take. I'm led to believe that Blood Claw horde with power fists out the wazoo was the best Space Wolf army in 40k 5e.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Quote: 

That's not necessarily true.


But from a game design point of view, it's intended to be true. It's not my fault GW Games Dev ain't perfect.  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:43 pm 
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I'd be up for moving toward slightly more awkward formation sizes (in terms of what can fit in a Thunderhawk), although I do note that the Codex list can usually cram any/all of it's formations in quite conveniently, the only oddball being bikes (Tactical squads can get Dreadnoughts to make up the numbers).

Currently churning some thoughts over be interested to hear what you think.


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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 22 2009, 14:43 )

Quote: 

That's not necessarily true.


But from a game design point of view, it's intended to be true. It's not my fault GW Games Dev ain't perfect.  :laugh:

Well, I disagree about Space Wolves being more "elite" than other marines FWIW. With C:SM4 Traits system, though it's rightfully not considered the most balanced ever, most famous chapters had per-model costed upgrades to their Tactical, Devastator and/or Assault marines, which made them roughly equal in capability to Space Wolves (in fact you could exactly duplicate Grey Hunters setup if you wanted).

That they're probably the second largest chapter in the Imperium doesn't help with any kind of "quality over quantity" reputation :p

edit: hello_dave: all Codex formations are intended to cover an integer number of 10 man sized squads. Bikes and Land Speeders have two Marines per base, infantry has five. Hence 5 model sized detachments.





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 Post subject: Attempt at a Space Wolves armylist
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ Sep. 22 2009, 12:16 )

As others have said I'm not sure it is really a horde list...

Fairy snuff, I've only ever played Epic where the wolves were 'the horde' in various iterations.
Quote: 

It's also (imho) a worse Thunderhawk load out than 2 lots of Assault Marines (even if you take the Jump Packs) as you can only have one Hero.


Well, purely on the numbers, claws + hero + thawk 550, 8 CC3+, 1 MWCC3+, 2 FF4+, 1 inspiring
Ass + Ass + Chap, + Chap + thawk 650, 8 CC3+, 2 MWCC3+, 2 FF4+, 2 Inspiring

Against their favoured target for MWCC (another 4+ save formation) you get roughly 4 kills +1 inspiring (which will become a theoretical rough 5 kills for the purposes of this average - 113.8 points per kill) with the wolves verses 4 1/2 kills + 2 inspiring (100 points per kill). Against lower saves the effect of MW of course reduced.

Other factors - the former has a more battle worthy formation of survivors, the latter has greater speed and hopefully more activations post assault, plus can mostly deploy 15cm from thawk.

But you will find it really isn't worth putting them in Rhinos as mechanised marines need something extra to cross the board. (See Salamander trials and tribulations.)

Quote: 

Don't you think that's going to get over-complicated with the Superior Tactics Rule 'Well, I can drop pod or thunderhawk this formation as I see fit, but I bought the cheaper version of my elite guys so can only do x with them'?


That is true. So you either drop superior tactics or have an effectively obsolete special rule (terminators in drop pods).

On a different note are Space Wolf heros a mixing of regular marine commander abilities (so chaplains combine with something else etc, I can't really remember off hand).

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