Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 424 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 29  Next

Blood Angels List Development Thread

 Post subject: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:32 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:59 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Los Angeles
Alright! I am proud to serve as the new Blood Angels Sub-AC.

I think the list is pretty close to being complete. However, the two main problems as I see them and have enumerated in other threads, are the following:

1. Extremely limited access to anti-tank, and no access at all to dedicated anti-tank formations

2. Lack of cheap delivery for assault elements

If the Blood Angels are to be an assault themed list, and they do not have the tools to deal with hardy units outside of assaulting them, then they need cheap, effective delivery for their assault units. As it is, the Blood Angels need to pay either a Spacecraft or Thunderhawk tax in order to get their assault elements where they need to be. This creates games in which the Blood Angels are vastly outnumbered and immobile without transports after being dropped off.

These two conditions combine to create a situation in which the Blood Angels have a very difficult time capturing the enemy BTS objective, while it is relatively easy to destroy the Blood Angel BTS. Because of this, the BA come into every game effectively down one victory condition.

The list simply cannot be competitive with the dual disadvantages of no anti-tank and inability to reliably get into assault with sufficient numbers.

Hence, the first change I am making as new sub-AC of the list is the introduction of teleporting assault formations. Special thanks to JimmyZimms for the idea. I think that teleporting assault formations, while not addressing all of the weaknesses of the list, would go a long way toward leveling the playing field and getting the Blood Angels where they need to be - in the enemy's face and applying pressure.

However, more than just looking at this from a competitive standpoint, teleporting assault marines are FUN and THEMATIC. The Blood Angels are all about shock and awe assaults. If Space Marines are like a bolt out of the blue, then Blood Angels are like the entire sky coming down on your head. That is how the list should play - not just as a variant of the Astartes list that happens to be able to take a few more assault marines and has the "Frenzied" penalty.

As a balancer for now, teleporting assault formations will be limited to six stands, with no option to upgrade to eight.

To kick this off, here is a battle report of my most recent league game in which I playtested teleporting assault marines. I think the results were very interesting.

http://xenocidalmaniac.wordpress.com/20 ... le-report/

I AM MAKING A CALL FOR PLAYTESTERS! I want to get this list playtested and done within 2014. Who out there is willing and able to provide battle reports for this list? Please respond in the thread.

Attachment:
BLOOD ANGELS SPACE MARINE ARMY LIST v2.4.pdf [331.29 KiB]
Downloaded 3843 times

Errata:
The Battle Barge should have the following note instead:
"Transport: (May carry 60 Blood Angels infantry units, Attack Bikes and Dreadnoughts; plus 60 of the following Blood Angels units: Baal Predators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Hunters, Whirlwinds, Predator Annihilators, or Vindicators; plus 9 Thunderhawks and/or Thunderhawk Transporters, and/or 16 Storm Ravens, and enough Drop pods or Landing Craft to carry any other units on board).

Slow and steady: may not be used on the first two turns of a battle unless the scenario specifically says otherwise."

The Strike Cruiser should have the following note instead:
"Transport: (May carry 20 Blood Angels infantry units, Attack Bikes and Dreadnoughts; Strike Cruiser plus 20 of the following Blood Angels units: Baal Predators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Hunters, Whirlwinds, Predator Annihilators, or Vindicators; plus 6 Thunderhawks and/or Thunderhawk Transporters, and/or 12 Storm Ravens, and enough Drop pods or Landing Craft to carry any other units on board)."

The Storm Raven should Have the following note instead:
"Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Skimmer, Transport: (May carry 1 Dreadnought; plus 1 Blood Angel Terminator unit or 2 of the following Blood Angels units: Sanguinary Guard, Assault, Death Company Assault, Death Company, Tactical, Devastator, Scout or Tactical"

The Heavy Support option should read: Add 1 to 3 Blood Angels Vindicators, +50pts each

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:54 am
Posts: 1927
Location: Australia
Mate,

Count the Canberra gaming group in Oz in. We are embarking on a series of testing over the coming months.

Cheers
Aaron


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:59 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Los Angeles
Thank you! I'll have a proper list for playtesting ready shortly!

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:01 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Best of luck with this endavour.

Nice battlereport! Very easy to follow. Thanks!
The ork player could have used his last activation (the landa) to take the BA blitz objective. That would have given him a 3 (BTS, T&H, Blitz) vs 1 (BTS) victory. Or is there a rule saying aircraft may only contest objectives (that I've missed)?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:07 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Aircraft can only CONTEST an objective on the turn they land.
If they stay in place until the end of the following turn, they can then CLAIM the objective.

Best of luck with this Xenocidal Maniac 8)

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:14 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1473
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Right then. Seems fair. That shows how little I play with airtransports. I've actually never used one myself.

thanks Onyx.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Playing devil's advocate here....

Instead of teleporting Assault troops have you considered allowing them to garrison? It's not as surgical but doesn't necessarily break the canon of Assault Marines in Epic but let's you move further forward more quickly. Not even the Raven Guard list has Teleporting Assault Marines and they're essentially the Marine Drop list. Given that, if anyone should get TP Assaulties it's the Raven Guard. Not saying don't try it here BTW.

In regards to cheaper assault delivery what's wrong with a 35cm speed Rhino? March first turn and you're in the enemy's face....

Quote:
These two conditions combine to create a situation in which the Blood Angels have a very difficult time capturing the enemy BTS objective

To be fair, this is often standard in most Marine armies that don't take Titans.... The Blood Angels aren't any different in this. I take two formations of land raiders and still often can't kill a heavy BTS. It's often why a lot of Marine players take Thunderhawks and Terminators.

Taking the BTS is often hard and sometimes you have to work harder to capture other objectives instead.... Boosting the list with a view to capturing a BTS more easily may need more contemplation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:35 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4687
Location: North Yorkshire
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
1. Extremely limited access to anti-tank, and no access at all to dedicated anti-tank formations

2. Lack of cheap delivery for assault elements

Thanks for the battle report. Definitely a different style to how I play, but very interesting.

To discuss your thoughts and the report. I'll agree that there is limited AT in the list, but where the Land Raiders have been restricted to Heavy Upgrades this is surely to promote the Infantry/CC nature of the list. I would be happy to support the return of the standard Predators to the list along side the Baal. And, of course you still have access to the underrated Razorback with catches people out regularly.

I agreed with Rug that I'd love to pay a Thunderhawk Tax with some of my armies. Plus surely the cheapest delivery system for Assault Marines is to start them deployed on the table at the start of the turn and march them first turn to striking distance of suitable targets if you don't want to air assault. But as I say different playing styles.

On a combined thought from both of your issues the Stormraven has been added to the list to give longer, all be it single shot, ranged AT as well as transport for all types of infantry. I'd find the 35cm engage move plus 15cm Jump Pack disembark to be a very effective tool. (I know we had problems with Feral Ork Boarboys which resulted in them dropping from move 25cm Infiltrate to 20cm Infiltrate.)

Adding Teleport to the Assault Marines is interesting and something that I'll play with. I certainly have no problem with this as Swooping Hawks have the rule, why not Assault Marines. Are we looking at a 75-100pt increase in their formation cost to do this?

Finally, thanks again for the report it helps to see how others set up terrain and how the deploy their troops. I would have gone for a heavier first turn drop and engage, but again that is my style.

Thanks for working your way through this.

Tim

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8561
Location: Manalapan, FL
Interesting batrep. I've come to realize that locally we use quite a bit more terrain than most. :)

I'm excited to see some openness to try something new like this. Maybe it doesn't pan out once we test it and we try something else. I concur with your assessment that the BA theme in 40k has been Deep Strike for quite a long time. If, through some mechanism of list and rules, this list can embody that I think its a good win for epic fun.

The garrison assault formations is an interesting idea worth playing with in a sandbox as well. Incidentally Dobbsy, the Raven Guard get planet falling Land Speeders IIRC instead.

I would suggest an upgrade cost perhaps for granting teleport to the assault Marines. Basically represents the high overflight of the assault transport so the BA can perform a HALO jump (which is what I assume you're going for here). Think the opening if Space Marine when the captain bails out of the thunderbrick at high altitude.

Another interesting idea might be Baal with Assault Marines upgrade. They've got the speed to keep up, for the most part, and it is a FF unit. Bringing along some CC troops that can hug the tanks for cover and then jump out to engage the enemy in CC might have utility.

Regardless, I'm excited to see some discrete testing of various exciting new ideas, mate. I'm committed to helping push space puppies into approved this summer but I'm looking forward to trying these out as soon as I can.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 9:53 pm
Posts: 374
I will take part in the playtests, as soon as possible! :) I like the idea of the teleporting Assault Marines -but just remember, don't raise their cost too much -we have termies with 4 x 3+, 4x 3+ MW attacks (and their ranged weapons also!), and 4+RA for 350p! I will not take a unit of 6 Assault Marines for 300p, with only 6 x 3+ CC attacks, without ranged firepower, even with jump packs..

I still like to use them as 6+2 units, in a Thawk, just for FUN :D so teleporting as an OPTION would be a better solution (and more flexible to have more type of units, even if their are just variants of something)!

BTW did you fixed the price of the Baal's/ Furioso's? :)


About the battrep: with a strike cruiser, it's risky to arrive in the 2nd turn (because of the small are it can hit) -but if you hit a crowded ork deployement zone (which is almost always crowded :) ) in turn 1 with orbital bombardement+deathwinds, the arriving termies/assaults job is just to clean up the mess, and finish the game in the 2nd turn.. :P

the terrain is also very open -but with your flexibility and speed, placing the objectives should have been used to divide the orks main force!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:53 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 4239
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Alright! I am proud to serve as the new Blood Angels Sub-AC.

I think the list is pretty close to being complete. However, the two main problems as I see them and have enumerated in other threads, are the following:

1. Extremely limited access to anti-tank, and no access at all to dedicated anti-tank formations

2. Lack of cheap delivery for assault elements


These two conditions combine to create a situation in which the Blood Angels have a very difficult time capturing the enemy BTS objective, while it is relatively easy to destroy the Blood Angel BTS. Because of this, the BA come into every game effectively down one victory condition.

The list simply cannot be competitive with the dual disadvantages of no anti-tank and inability to reliably get into assault with sufficient numbers.


1 Stormraven - 300pts for 16 AT4+ shots that can pop up and use terrain AND planetfall - even as a Dev upgrade, I'd say that is a pretty good AT unit. Certainly a match for a Warhound and superior to a Predator formation

2 Thunderhawks - like every other SM list, no better assault delivery unit in the the game

Premise of BTS-killing - a Codex SM list will kill a BTS such as a LR Co, Mech Inf Co, BL Retinue, large titan etc in 2 ways through Terminator assault either by thunderhawk/ teleport or by gaining the upper hand in activations and cutting them to pieces with multiple formations crossfiring, prepping assaults and supporting an assault. BA can do both of these just as well as other SM.

Lost Predators+Warhounds, gained larger assault SM formations, better more specialised dreadnoughts, FF preds, rules that make it easier to assault and the fantastic storm raven.

If you do go down the teleporting assault marine rule (which is more logical than SW scouts having it) then 6 should be at least 300. Otherwise I'd be looking to spam them teleporting into cover with their assault range, taking lots of smaller formations then picking them up with a thunderhawk

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 8561
Location: Manalapan, FL
Steve54 wrote:
1 Stormraven - 300pts for 16 AT4+ shots that can pop up and use terrain AND planetfall - even as a Dev upgrade, I'd say that is a pretty good AT unit. Certainly a match for a Warhound and superior to a Predator formation

Just to note it's down to 8 AT 4+ shots. I do feel it is a damn fine bit of AT regardless.

Steve54 wrote:
gained larger assault SM formations, better more specialised dreadnoughts

I'd personally debate that those are actually pluses but yeah, that's neither here nor there. ;)

Steve54 wrote:
If you do go down the teleporting assault marine rule (which is more logical than SW scouts having it) then 6 should be at least 300. Otherwise I'd be looking to spam them teleporting into cover with their assault range, taking lots of smaller formations then picking them up with a thunderhawk

That's a pretty nice strategy there actually Steve. I'm going to squirrel that one away when I test this list. :)

XM, it's ultimately your call mate but history has shown it's generally easier to drop prices than raise them. I'd personally go conservative on the prices and get a few tests from a few groups in. Regardless, testing will uncover issues in short order regardless.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known As Marine Army Champion

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5427
Location: London, UK
I have to agree Jimmy and Steve. One of the 'weaknesses' of Assault Marines is being four strong, so usually only good for a single assault. Increasing the formation six strong, and then having Teleport as well is making them *very* handy - especially in conjunction with multiple THawks and Landing Craft to set up similar assaults each turn.

What I think you are suggesting is that the BA should tend towards a total "Air assault" style list (which can already be achieved in the vanilla list). While fine in theory, the "air assault" style list tends to be very 'binary' as the air capability increases - either winning or losing by a large margin. The reason for this is that one side or the other gains a huge activation advantage. Either the Marines manage to kill off the enemy activations that were targeted, or they succumb to counter-attacks. This in turn is going to make it quite hard to determine the impact of any proposed changes.

XM, given that being very aggressive (and hence air-heavy) is the intention, you may need to take care over the strength and number of formations that can do this. 300 for 6x teleporting Assault Marines is likely to be too cheap, it effectively costs teleporting at 5 points.

325 for six teleporting Assault Marines is probably more accurate.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 9:53 pm
Posts: 374
Ginger wrote:

325 for six teleporting Assault Marines is probably more accurate.


And we arrive to the Termies in this case. Buy 6 Assault Marines, and have 6 3+ CC attacks, without MW, without RA? No thanks. :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 424 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 29  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net