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Blood Angels List Development Thread

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:37 pm 
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With 30cm speed so do not have to teleport within 15cm and thus into danger like terminators but rather 30cm away from the target or even multiple target formations not in as much danger and in cover too.
Largely negates the three problems of terminators
- losing the strategy roll and being left within 15cm of your opponent
- lack of speed after the assault. I often put bait units for terminators well away from objectives. Terminators might kill them but will then be isolated from the objectives unless they march
- losing the strategy roll and then your target formation moves away. More difficult with 30cm move and also easier to threaten multiple targets

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:22 am 
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A difficult choice I agree :)
Rats, Steve got there first ;D

The point is that they have more numbers, flexibility and speed, at the cost of weaker armour and no shooting.

However, "the proof of the pudding is in the testing" as they say . . . ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:35 am 
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Excuse my ignorance, what's the rationale for assaults having teleport in BA but not codex?

I don't remember BA assaults being any different in 40k but then I haven't played since 3rd edition. Can assaults and swooping hawks deep strike now, or whatever it's called?


In terms of BA weaknesses, I'm surprised it seems to be an issue. I can't say I tend to lose BTS to the marine units that BA have lost, it's usually terminators and/or thawk assaults both of which blood angels can do (in fact they can do the latter better). I think I'm also not grokking the speed issue properly, is this referring to assaults with jump packs or another unit? 30cm is fast and they're still transportable in thawks right?

I must say the biggest problem marines have in engagements is numbers, so the list looks appealing with baals and 6 strong assaults - nice boosts for anyone who wants a reason to pick a list without warhounds. In a way giving assaults teleport seems a shame as they'd have to be expensive, which rather defeats the purpose without adding a role the army doesn't already have.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
With 30cm speed so do not have to teleport within 15cm and thus into danger like terminators but rather 30cm away from the target or even multiple target formations not in as much danger and in cover too.
Largely negates the three problems of terminators
- losing the strategy roll and being left within 15cm of your opponent
- lack of speed after the assault. I often put bait units for terminators well away from objectives. Terminators might kill them but will then be isolated from the objectives unless they march
- losing the strategy roll and then your target formation moves away. More difficult with 30cm move and also easier to threaten multiple targets

Agreed.

They have similar cost but play wildly differently. You won't be able to march Termies 90cm across the board to capture an objective in a pinch either.

In regards to cost it is still feasible to have 4 -strong teleporting formations to keep costs more reasonable and plentiful.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:18 am 
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Some comments on the latest list (v2.2)
  • Is there any reason why the "Bike" formation is now 250? Given that scout has been removed, should this return to 200 for four bikes + one attack bike?

  • Given that the Death company is mandatory, perhaps the entry should be "1" rather than "0-1".

  • Would it be possible to add the note about the SC to the top of the list. Something like
    Quote:
    "The Supreme Commander must be placed in the Sanguinary Guard if both are taken"

  • The Landing craft note mentions Dreadnoughts twice, perhaps one could be removed.

  • I am sure this has been discussed before, but why is "Fast Attack" costed at 100, is it because this contains +3 Attack bikes? Since all the units mentioned are 40 points each, it might be preferable to keep this at +2 of all the stated units and drop the cost to 75 points (or even allow the player to pick any two of the following . . .).

  • Although the Storm Raven has planetfall, it is not noted in the units transported by the Strike Cruiser or BattleBarge, and for consistency perhaps the THawk and LC references should be expanded to be BA THawk and BA LC (if space permits).

  • Here is a *radical* thought, following on from the Teleport discussion; how about making teleport an Upgrade? The wording would be something like
    Quote:
    Teleport . . . . Add teleport to each pair of Assault Marines . . . +25
          Note, 'Teleport must be added to all the units in the formation
    This would also allow you to add 'Teleport' to the Death company Assault marines.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:40 am 
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From the 2.2 thread, don't forget the Baal Predators cost lowering, and the Epic Uk type Fearless DC Dreadnought/Furioso Dreadnought cost lowering, and Thawk Transporter discussion! (altough i don't support THT's in an infantry focused army list..)

Is it a good idea to let the DC have teleport aslo? I think it's not in their profile, to participate in precise HALO operations.. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:38 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Some comments on the latest list (v2.2)

Ginger, it's not actually the latest as it's just a draft for discussion to see what people thought about it. You will likely find many typos as I knocked it together at speed. :-[

Ginger wrote:
  • Is there any reason why the "Bike" formation is now 250? Given that scout has been removed, should this return to 200 for four bikes + one attack bike?

Most likely a typo .
Ginger wrote:
  • Given that the Death company is mandatory, perhaps the entry should be "1" rather than "0-1".

  • Yep .
    Ginger wrote:
  • Would it be possible to add the note about the SC to the top of the list. Something like
    Quote:
    "The Supreme Commander must be placed in the Sanguinary Guard if both are taken"

    It could.
    Ginger wrote:
  • The Landing craft note mentions Dreadnoughts twice, perhaps one could be removed.

  • Typo

    Ginger wrote:
  • I am sure this has been discussed before, but why is "Fast Attack" costed at 100, is it because this contains +3 Attack bikes? Since all the units mentioned are 40 points each, it might be preferable to keep this at +2 of all the stated units and drop the cost to 75 points (or even allow the player to pick any two of the following . . .).

  • You'd have to ask E&C as the +100 was from his 2.12 version list.

    Ginger wrote:
  • Although the Storm Raven has planetfall, it is not noted in the units transported by the Strike Cruiser or BattleBarge, and for consistency perhaps the THawk and LC references should be expanded to be BA THawk and BA LC (if space permits).

  • Yep typos all I think. The Storm raven particularly, as I know for sure I overlooked adding it to the spacecraft data.

    Ginger wrote:
  • Here is a *radical* thought, following on from the Teleport discussion; how about making teleport an Upgrade? The wording would be something like
    Quote:
    Teleport . . . . Add teleport to each pair of Assault Marines . . . +25
          Note, 'Teleport must be added to all the units in the formation
    This would also allow you to add 'Teleport' to the Death company Assault marines.

  • I like this idea but would just apply a +75 to the formation because you wouldn't put it on just 2 units at a time when the whole formation needs it to teleport together. Maybe something more like:

    Quote:
    Add Teleport to an Assault Formation +75points

    It would seem simpler.

    Personally I'd be very hesitant to give the DC Teleport to start with.... Baby steps. :)

    Devil's Advocate here again. >:D

    Is this going to open Pandora's Box on Teleport for Assault Marines across all lists....?

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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:56 pm 
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    Well, one of the reasons for suggesting working on +25 per pair of Assault Marine units was that it also worked for the "Assault" upgrade.

    However others have also suggested that more than 6x BA Assault marines teleporting might be OTT. If so, your suggestion for a cost of +75 would work, and we could make the upgrades read
        "Commander, Teleport OR Assault, Dreadnought, Fast attack . . . etc".


    As an aside, it seems that the Space Wolves Terminators (which cannot teleport) are 325, suggesting that the 'Teleport' ability for them was deemed to be +25 - so it seems that we are discussing roughly the same values of between +6 and +12 points per unit.

    As for the "Devil's Advocate" suggestion of doing it across the board, and allowing *all* Assault Marines to do this, the reasoning would be the same as Swooping Hawks or Elysian Drop troops; it is a very elegant way of having the formation surprise the opponent and his forces. It is certainly worth a thought or two. Perhaps this upgrade should be +50 for the standard 4x unit Assault Marines formation to 'suddenly arrive' (teleport), given the increased flexibility this presents (and to reduce the obvious spam capabilities).


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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:55 pm 
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    The topic is going to be something, like a whislist before xmas :D

    Guys, try to stick to the main problem -BA armies are very over activated, the units are expensive because of the much needed transport options -so what's the reason of creating a 250+75 =325p new unit? :D seems odd to me! I'm aware of their capabilities/different role next to Termies, but it's just not worth it, sorry :)

    I think a Teleport option for +25p is fair enough, to keep them playable!


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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:12 pm 
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    pati wrote:
    Guys, try to stick to the main problem -BA armies are very over activated, the units are expensive because of the much needed transport options -!


    I'd dispute that problem -Need for transport is exactly the same as other SM lists, plenty of cheap options like other SM lists too

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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:40 pm 
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    Great feedback from everyone. Thank you all! More than anything, I am happy that this has sparked so much discussion. I honestly did not think it would inspire such spirited debate!

    Based on the feeback, here are the changes I am going to implement for playtesting immediately.

    - Dreadnoughts reduced from 75 to 50 points.

    - Teleport to be added as an upgrade option for assault formations at 50 points. Assault formations may take either the teleport or the assault upgrade, but not both. I'm inclined to think +25 is more appropriate, but others have said they feel +75 is more appropriate, so we will split the difference and see how +50 holds up under playtesting.

    Changes I will NOT be making at this time -

    - Cost of Baal Predators. While I generally feel they are overpriced at 300, I'd like to wait and see what effect the teleporting assault marines have on the list first.

    - Death Company getting teleport. From a fluff standpoint, I'm not convinced frothing madmen would have the tactical acumen to pull off such complex and risky maneuvers, and from a gameplay standpoint, I'd like to wait and see what the effects of the other changes are first before we start throwing the monkey wrench of teleporting an ultra elite assault unit like Death Company into the mix.

    - Addition of Thunderhawk Transporters - simply adds too many variables to a list that frankly has bigger fish to fry at the moment. Also, the fact that there does not seem to be consensus regarding the cost across different marine lists is a concern to me. Dobbsy and GlynG are doing awesome work on standardizing this so we'll let them finish up and then circle round to this conversation again, if needed.

    Changes up for discussion -

    - Stormravens - I am looking for some consensus here. Either they retain 4 missiles each at 75 points, or they drop down to 2 missiles each at 50 points. I'm fine with them either way, but please keep in mind that if they are dropped to 2 missiles / 50 points, there will need to be a corresponding drop in the cost of the 4 Stormraven formation. 200 points feels a little "popcorn-y" to me for such a unit, but, I am open to ideas. Perhaps 200 is right if they essentially operate as a "tough landspeeder" formation. This is a change I would like to make in either direction ASAP, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

    - Creating a "standard" formation of 4 assault marine stands with the option to teleport. To me, this feels more potentially imbalancing than anything else we've discussed, but I am certainly open to the idea. If they were priced in such a way that they could retain usability while at the same time not be open to "popcorn" abuse, it could work out very well. Perhaps something like 225 for the unit? When you consider adding a Chaplain, Captain, etc, it becomes 275, which is not cheap. Hmm. Could work.

    A note on playtesting - I want to say that I value everyone's feedback and I know there are quite a few people here who have been playing longer than I have who have very valuable input. However, perhaps due to my degree in political science, I tend to weight empirical data more heavily than theory or anecdotal evidence. With that in mind, I would sincerely appreciate if more people contributing their thoughts could also contribute some playtests with the list - it needn't be anything near as intricate as the ones I write up - maybe just the lists, a general summary, and your thoughts.

    In short, I am going to make all changes based primarily on hard evidence demonstrated in battle reports. At the moment, however, the sample size for playtesting the Blood Angels consists solely of my battle reports. If that's all that we have, that is what I will go on, but I am of course acutely aware of the limitations associated with that.

    I will have a revised playtesting list written up within the next couple of days. Dobbsy, can we make arrangements for me to get the word document for the list?

    Again, thanks everyone! Let's get this list done and approved!!

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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:56 pm 
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    Steve54 wrote:
    pati wrote:
    Guys, try to stick to the main problem -BA armies are very over activated, the units are expensive because of the much needed transport options -!


    I'd dispute that problem -Need for transport is exactly the same as other SM lists, plenty of cheap options like other SM lists too


    Yeah, but you just can't put the BA army's mainstay unit, the Assault Marines into free Rhinos, Drop pods, Land Raiders etc.. to make them more resilent! The cheapest option is the Thawk, for 200p ;)


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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:30 pm 
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    To be fair XM, I tend to agree with Steve that on paper at least, I have used very similar army lists with Standard Marines without a problem. I have found that using multiple THawks and Landing Craft gave sufficient air-mobility. Bikes, Landspeeders, TBolts and Scouts boost activation numbers allowing flexibility in the timing of the intended air-assault, while a Space Cruiser gives deployment flexibility (especially under the E-UK special rule). Finally I never take Warhounds (call me old-fashioned) and have found that Devastators with Land Raider upgrades provides a strong support formation that can give enemy armour a headache, especially when delivered by a planetfalling Landing Craft.
    However, I recognise that my lists may not quite fit your vision for the BA, so 'teleporting' stronger Assault Marine formations seems to add a bit more of that flavour.

    On the list itself
    • I really like the proposed idea of Sanguinary Guard and the Death company as representing the 'berserker' style of BA assaults. However, the relatively weaker armour does make them a bit of a 'glass hammer' as others have noted, and their lack of firepower means that you need to provide that in other units and formations.
    • The Storm Raven looks like a good compromise between armour and transport (especially with planetfall), though I would suggest reducing to 2x missiles at +50 for two reasons:-
      - it keeps the costs down so helping to retain higher activation numbers
      - it is easier to increase power than to decrease it
    • I would prefer the teleport upgrade to be +75 for reasons stated earlier, though can live with +50


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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:38 pm 
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    Looking forward to breaking testing this out, mate! ;D
    Gimmie the docs!

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     Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
    PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:32 am 
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    pati wrote:
    The topic is going to be something, like a whislist before xmas :D

    Guys, try to stick to the main problem -BA armies are very over activated, the units are expensive because of the much needed transport options -so what's the reason of creating a 250+75 =325p new unit?

    You won't get cheap as chips Marine units when you increase their formation sizes. Given 4 Assault Marines is 175 point (43.75 ea) 6 Assault Marine units should be 262.5 points so already get a small discount per unit at 250 points.

    pati wrote:
    I think a Teleport option for +25p is fair enough, to keep them playable!

    Starting with a higher cost first is the generally accepted design pattern. If it's too high it can be dropped.

    6 units for 325 with teleport is a reasonable starting point. More likely I see them dropping to +25 points for the formation. let's see how +50 works out first eh?

    Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
    Dobbsy, can we make arrangements for me to get the word document for the list?

    Sure thing XM. will email you the doc.


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