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Blood Angels List Development Thread

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:36 am 
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if I had to pick a direction for the list, I'd go with Codex+ rather than chucking the codex out of the window

I think most of the codex toys in exchange for the warhounds + titans is a decent trade, we all know what a force multiplier they are ;)

I'd be happy with the return of LR formations and pred annihilator, the removal of the destructor variant in favour of the Baal is a good choice from my POV

Keep the vindicators also, in the dozen or so games I've used them, they've pretty much been pants, preds are just so much better in 90% of situations, so you're not really buffing the list by including them, although with the speed boost they can keep pace with assault marines better and might find use working with them?

You know my feeling on Sanguinary Guard, they're a fluff choice and are always competing with terminators, especially as the death company are a mandatory choice.... if you want them in, leave em in, cost them conservatively so that people who really want to model the chapter at war can use them and the rest of us who find the idea of golden angels with glowing swords a step too far even for GW, won't be hamstringing ourselves by not using them (this is how I'm trying to work the fellblade into the IF list, okay if you take it, but it's by no means an automatic choice)

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:44 am 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
To address concerns that the list as-is has not been playtested enough, particularly with Thunderhawk and drop heavy armies - I actually have run the list that way. Unfortunately, I can't batrep every game I play. Such lists perform as well as you would expect an Astartes list to run without access to Warhounds and anti-tank weaponry. Without any fire support, you're flying your Thunderhawks through AA fire, picking up blast markers on the way in

OK I have to say this is no different to any other Marine lists that use air assault without titans. :) Whirlwinds are great for BMs and even attack bikes can perform this. Also Thunderhawks are excellent for doing this with a 75cm range on a ground attack that can easily stay clear of flak. Also, do you perform clipping attacks?

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
- Do Land Raiders get their own formations? Now that I think of it, in the 40k codex, Blood Angels only have access to Land Raiders as transports, and not as independent Heavy Support. Will have to give this some thought.

Well the LR has always been available as transport so I do wonder why folks seemed to think they had no AT. They just aren't separate formations.

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
- Bikes are 200 points, in line with the Astartes cost

TBH I think you may as well keep the standard formation for this. I would imagine some folks would prefer to avoid the Attack bike in that formation but have the option just like other lists.
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
- Do we include vindicator formations? If so, priced at 250. Concerned that this addition might be changing too much, too soon.

Can't really see an issue with an assault tank in an assault list. :)
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
- Sanguinary Guard. What do we do with this? 375 + 100 for this unit is too high. No one will ever use it. I wouldn't. I want to start from scratch with this unit. I'm thinking priced the same as terminators is more appropriate for this unit, so 350 to start. Not necessarily sold on the necessity of joining the SC to it.

You wanted the SG you should take it as it's meant - as a guard for the Chapter Master. If necessary to reduce costs you could still just make it a two unit upgrade to a formation such as an Assault squad. You'd still get to use it but not have to pay such a high premium.

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Thinking that if you field the SG, it's auto-BTS regardless of points.

Only if you let it.... The option of a big Tactical formation with Land Raiders etc springs to mind here.

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Just keep in mind that having the SC attached to such a squishy squad, or making the formation auto-BTS is a hefty liability that is probably worthy of a point discount.

You should pay for what you get. If you want a hard hitting unit then the price needs to reflect that.

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Land Raider Formations - yay or nay?

Has anyone actually tried LRs in Tactical formations for AT firepower? As you're adding in Preds for more as well, I think it needs play before a decision to add stand alone LR formations is made.

Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Sanguinary Guard - what do we do?

Discussed above, however, they were started at 375 with the view to starting them high then with play testing to decide on future costs but as yet I don't recall seeing a single batrep using them.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:12 am 
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BTW, the base of this discussion is the 2.2 list, but try to look at the 2.12! It's much more conservative about Vindicators, Land Raiders, etc


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:18 am 
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Further thoughts on the SG
I really like Dobbsy's thought on having them as a two unit upgrade to the SC formation.

However on the current costs, the current stats do not warrant the same cost as a Termie. Jump packs / mobility and Fearless do not compare with better FF, RA and 2x shots per unit. (IMO the key ability here is actually the RA termie armour).

When compared with standard Assault Marines (~45 ea), they have EA+1 MW, slightly better armour and Fearless. If you cost Fearless at +5, the armour at +5 and the EA at +10, this would still only bring the cost up to ~65 each, or ~270.

Given that Dobbsy says he deliberately started at a high cost, you might try reducing the current formation to 300, and still consider some of the options above as ways to improve the formation resilience etc.

(And it seems that the list is now actually V2.3 - so I guess that this has already been corrected by XM / Dobbsy. ;) )


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:38 am 
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It's been a long while since I saw a Blood Angel codex in 40K, but is the sanguinary guard really something that needs to be fielded as an entire formation? And without a commander in sight even? I thought it was just a few guys that hung around with Dante :) Just because the chapter has a certain number of the guys, doesn't mean they'd all be committed to battle at the same time in the same place. I'm not even sure there's a need to represent with rules, just model the other guys on the SC's base as SG. If really necessary you could make the SC (or SG) a separate infantry unit, or give the SC character another Extra Attack or something. You should probably restrict the SC to infantry units in that case though - would sanguinary guard really be in a Predator? Of course, if the SG have changed in 40K I stand to be corrected.

Personally I would not bother with some of the little tinkering changes like a mandatory attack bike: just use the regular codex structure for most things and only change it when there is a real reason why blood angels would do it differently to other marines. That goes for the fast attack/heavy support upgrades too, there's nothing wrong with the original options for these units and the fewer changes, the easier it is to test and the faster it is to get approved. But if you feel the need, sure.

Why is Death Company 0-1 if it is mandatory?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
- Sanguinary Guard. What do we do with this? 375 + 100 for this unit is too high. No one will ever use it. I wouldn't. I want to start from scratch with this unit. I'm thinking priced the same as terminators is more appropriate for this unit, so 350 to start. Not necessarily sold on the necessity of joining the SC to it.

You wanted the SG you should take it as it's meant - as a guard for the Chapter Master. If necessary to reduce costs you could still just make it a two unit upgrade to a formation such as an Assault squad. You'd still get to use it but not have to pay such a high premium.

As with others, I like the idea of this and can see it having legs.

On XM's last thoughts:

Pity that teleport has dropped so quickly, I was building up to try a massed assault army teleporting in next month. Might try it anyway as a 'fun' game.

With the other proposed changes I'm happy to follow the AC lead and see where we go.

& am I the only one thinking of trying a massed Stormraven army? (Although I'm not sure that I have enough Vultures and Valkyrie to proxy it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:09 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:

Pity that teleport has dropped so quickly, I was building up to try a massed assault army teleporting in next month. Might try it anyway as a 'fun' game.

With the other proposed changes I'm happy to follow the AC lead and see where we go.

& am I the only one thinking of trying a massed Stormraven army? (Although I'm not sure that I have enough Vultures and Valkyrie to proxy it.)


It's not dropped, just the priority is the balancing of the current list :)
the stormraven+scout lists or just stormravens are boring ones, try it you will see ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:17 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Am I the only one thinking of trying a massed Stormraven army? (Although I'm not sure that I have enough Vultures and Valkyrie to proxy it.)
LoL - my thoughts as well. Hence my suggestion of restricting the SR to upgrades only. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
& am I the only one thinking of trying a massed Stormraven army? (Although I'm not sure that I have enough Vultures and Valkyrie to proxy it.)

You're not alone, it looks like a very good and cheap option with a great balance of weapons. 8 AT dice in the first turn when closing the distance, great for taking out transports, flak, shields etc. Then another 8 dice in subsequent turns. With both skimmer and reinforced armour, they're also reasonably survivable at the range they like to operate in and overall not many weaknesses for the opponent to exploit in getting rid of them - certainly more points need to be invested than they cost. I'd be thinking of using lots of them in dedicated formations. For 200 points, I'd rather take these than hammerheads any day of the week. Not convinced predators are worth 37.5% more either.

Oh, and they can transport. But actually I see this usage as less of a problem at 50 points each, since you're trading for rhinos at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:46 pm 
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I like the idea of the SG being an upgrade. However I'd allow it to be either 2 or 4 and only on a maximum sized assault detachment. SC wouldn't be required to run it but if you do run an SC he would need to be in the unit. While you'd still wind up possibly with a BTS unit it would now have 4 more ablative stands. Giving it a bit more survivability. Basically just Dante leading his SG and 1st Company Vanguard into battle.

For Stormravens what about 250 for a formation of 4 and 50pts per Raven as a formation upgrade? Makes you pay for the activation for them but also allows the cheaper addition to formations and balances the replacement of existing transports?

Also the Dreads are still 75pts in the army list. Just a heads up.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:40 pm 
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BTW, the point cost of the Dreads wasn't revised in the armyforge..


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:46 pm 
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Hmm, the SG as an upgrade with the SC would have to be costed at 125+100, or 225 the lot as a minimum. That may suffer the same cost issues that have already been expressed. If added to the standard BA assault group the total becomes 475.

Now admittedly that is 8x units that also gives 3x MW attacks, is relatively resilient and mobile and can be delivered in the standard THawk - indeed the more I think about it, the more I like it. I believe it gives the flavour you are seeking whilst not straying too far from the standard codex . . . . :)

Sure, if you want to avoid this becoming the BTS, you have to use some tacticals with Land Raider transport (500 points), which is a meaty formation on its own. However you can make up the activation numbers with TBolts and Scouts.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:15 pm 
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The 2.3 version of the list is now up. Sorry, what I had posted last night was a draft. Upon further reflection, formations of 4 Stormravens at 200 points is just too cheap and spammable. I've bumped them up to 250.

Please bear with me - I'm still new at this and am not up on the protocol for version changes, army forge changes, etc. I'll get there.

Version 2.3 is now live and attached to the first post.

- Pred Annis included in the Predator entry

- Predators (Baal and Annis) priced at 275

- Stormraven upgrade reduced to 50 points

- Stormraven formation reduced to 250 points

- Bike formation reduced to 200 points

- Baal Predator FF value changed to 3+

- Thunderhawk Transporters are out (for now)

- Dreadnought upgrade reduced to +50

This is the definitive 2.3 list. Will playtest as soon as possible.

Land Raider and Vindicator formations not included for now. No changes to Sanguinary Guard for now. Both of these issues will be revisited. Sanguinary Guard, in particular, WILL be changed in upcoming versions once I decide which direction I want to move with them.

I want to address some of the points brought up in all of this wonderful discussion, but I need to get back to work for now! Will post later.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:50 am 
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Wow, what a busy week. There is a lot to address here.

I wanted to address the question of whether Land Raiders have been tried in different formations such as tacticals and devastators - the answer to that question is yes, and you can see the results in my batreps. The primary problem with keeping AT elements as upgrades is that it erodes activation count severely in an army that needs to stay nimble. 75 points apiece just to get a couple of AT tanks is a very hefty price. You put 3 LRs in a tactical and you're already at 500 points.

The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to include Land Raider formations. I've been reviewing the 40k Blood Angel codex pretty thoroughly lately, and it seems to me that the Blood Angels use Land Raiders more as a heavy transport rather than a battle tank. As I mentioned, there is no option to take them as Heavy Support as codex marines do. That, and I think we're already getting enough toys as it is.

Vindicators, I think, should remain an upgrade option for now. The main reason is I want the list to settle a little bit before I make any more major changes, and I also like the idea of the vindicators being used in a support capacity to the assault elements. (And, as Kyuss mentioned, Vindicator formations are pretty pants anyway)

Ginger, thanks for all of your input, especially regarding Sanguinary Guard. Unfortunately, I cannot remove the jump packs from them - that's not an option in the fluff or the 40k codex. That's their thing. They're golden angels of death.

I would like to simply start from scratch with this unit rather than playtest them in their current incarnation.

I do think the idea of including 2 stands of them as an upgrade is a good one. However, I am reluctant to mix a fearless unit in with non-fearless units. It feels a little messy. I'll give this some more thought. But 2 stands of Sanguinary Guard attached to a 6 stand assault unit could be interesting. It means more playtesting, however....

Poring over the Blood Angel fluff, I'm getting a better idea of how I want them to be represented in the game, although it is still rather nebulous at this point. The fluff indicates that the Sanguinary Guard is 30 strong. No more, no less. For all 30 of them to take the field at one time is a rare event requiring special permission under dire circumstances. I'm toying with the idea of making the formation six strong rather than four strong. Hear me out - one, it's more consistent with the fluff, and two, it's actually somewhat of a detriment / balancer to have them at six stands. At four stands, you can pack them in with a unit of devastators into a Thunderhawk. At six, they're flying solo. Furthermore, at six stands, it's easier to justify a hefty price for fielding them along with an SC, but at the same time, you're getting what you are paying for.

And I am on board with leaving them more as a fluff addition - I don't want players to feel hamstrung by not fielding them, but, at the same time, I don't want players to have to massively overpay for them. They should be useful for the points but not cheap.

I agree with Ginger that they should have access to all of the other upgrades that Death Company and Assault formations have access to.

They've got to be BTS, no matter what. All 30 of the Sanguinary Guard dying would be a crushing blow (keep in mind, these aren't just elite marines - the fluff describes them as "Gods among men", the embodiment of Blood Angel pride, the heirs to Sanguinius). If you've got another unit on the table worth more points, it's BTS as well. The opponent can destroy one or the other to claim the objective. This is another balancer.

I'm thinking 125 for the two stand upgrade (if that option is included at all), 450 for the six stand formation with obligatory Supreme Commander. Again, just brainstorming here. Would love to hear thoughts.

THE GOOD NEWS - I feel that the list is finally coming together and solidifying. I'm going to playtest version 2.3 in the near future. If that turns out well, then really all we've got left to tackle is the issue of the Sanguinary Guard, and then I think we can make the big push for final approval.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:33 pm 
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I think you made the right decisions about the Land Raiders/ Vindicators!

About the SG, mixing fearless with non-fearless -In case of eldar, you can upgrade guardians with wraithguard -it's working well for a long time now -just you need to calculate with this difference between your units, when you choose that upgrade!
Making them a compulsory BTS is an absolutely fluffwise decision (just look at the approved Baran list).

BTW did you checked all the 40k codexes, or just the latest ones? GW's policy in re-writing the fluff for economical reasons is not the way we sholud follow..


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