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Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]

 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:25 pm 
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I haven't yet decided what my marine army is going to be based on hence am considering the variants at the moment. Honestly the white scars list looks a little bit pointless. Let's remember that the reason it is a core approved list is because it was one of the first GW variant lists, dating from 2004.

Mostly the list exists for flavour IMO, it gets that from some fairly major restrictions, but really has no or very few advantages at all over the codex list. I'll be the first one to argue that a list is as much about what it cannot do as what it can, but there does need to be some balance there for the list to be interesting to a large group of people. It's hard to argue that, despite being one of the most long-standing approved lists, white scars is a popular choice. We don't have all that many approved lists, so it makes sense to me to make the best use of the ones we do have. So if people are interested in the white scars list, I see no harm in them tweaking it to address that.

To use an analogy, if there was an existing imperial fists list that was simply codex marines minus all the fast vehicles, making a list like KIC has done would still have been valid. What is being proposed here is nowhere near as drastic. I am not a fan of the "let's steal hit and run" idea, but there are other things that could be done to explore in more detail some of the other interesting bits of the list (e.g. making an all-drop army more viable or interesting than it is in the codex list). For now though one or two clear benefits to the core unit type of the list (bikes) would be great.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:01 pm 
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this totally. I'm painting white scars successors as my second army but the only appeal of this list is that it's like playing on hard mode. It deserves to go in the museum with the original siege masters list under the heading epic fail. Then we can get on with making something cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:04 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I haven't yet decided what my marine army is going to be based on hence am considering the variants at the moment. Honestly the white scars list looks a little bit pointless. Let's remember that the reason it is a core approved list is because it was one of the first GW variant lists, dating from 2004.

Mostly the list exists for flavour IMO, it gets that from some fairly major restrictions, but really has no or very few advantages at all over the codex list. I'll be the first one to argue that a list is as much about what it cannot do as what it can, but there does need to be some balance there for the list to be interesting to a large group of people. It's hard to argue that, despite being one of the most long-standing approved lists, white scars is a popular choice. We don't have all that many approved lists, so it makes sense to me to make the best use of the ones we do have. So if people are interested in the white scars list, I see no harm in them tweaking it to address that.

To use an analogy, if there was an existing imperial fists list that was simply codex marines minus all the fast vehicles, making a list like KIC has done would still have been valid. What is being proposed here is nowhere near as drastic. I am not a fan of the "let's steal hit and run" idea, but there are other things that could be done to explore in more detail some of the other interesting bits of the list (e.g. making an all-drop army more viable or interesting than it is in the codex list).


I think the list is plenty balanced as it is, maybe it's a little less flexible than the codex list, but that's due to having a stronger theme and focus, you also get discount terminators with land raiders which is an ace loadout in a landing craft ;)

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For now though one or two clear benefits to the core unit type of the list (bikes) would be great.


they do already have walker and a much more optimal formation size...

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:37 pm 
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Aye and a little more ummmph, such as the addition of FS would be pretty grand as an option. (that was you or Apoc that PM'd that to me, Kyuss?)

Personally I really do like the Hit & Run but that's because the mechanic is so well understood and thematic but I'm hearing what you're saying about doing that for crazy alt-fans lists and spend some more about making this one shine.

Throwing this out there then folks:

-White Scar Vindicator (same points)
AV 30cm A:4+, C:6+, F:4+
Demolisher Cannon 30cm AP3+/AT4+ IC

-Upgrade
Power lances, bikes gain first strike

-Upgrade
Outriders, upgrade for: tact, dev, pred, termiantor, LR
Add +2 bike stands to the formation for Xpts

Replace Aircraft with marine ones

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:17 am 
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Well now 8 FS marine 35cm units, I'd buy that for a dollar! What cost though? 75?

Vindi is a more interesting unit than codex too, and I already thought it was underrated - it's just its rare you can spare the points for a dedicated formation.

Outriders: no devs in list, not sure what other situations I would bother to take them for, just formation size boosters I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:10 am 
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Yeah something like 75 (maybe 100) points? FS is naturally pretty badass (granted here it's a CC ability but not like that's not what you want to do with them anyways).

Outriders are cheap padders/ablative shields. Could see them really working well with destructors and vindis in assaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:27 pm 
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like those ideas much more than swarms of irritating tiny bike formations :)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:08 pm 
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Swarms of irritating tiny formations is already possible in the codex list so I'm not sure what the issue is with them but so long as the list has some interesting things in it I have an open mind about it all.

Have been thinking about the drop-pod part of the white scars transport rule too. The "all or nothing" restriction I like and I think more could be made of this aspect - turn it into something cool and different from the codex list (as opposed to just another pointless nerf). So I like the idea of drop pods playing a bigger role, but looking at the list, right now very little of the army can actually enter play by drop pod (only tacticals). There are no devs, scouts can't, neither bikes or terminators. I also find the wording of the rule a bit unclear, and overall the interaction between the different transport options clunky.

Do I have this right? If you want to use pods you must replace all transports with drop pods, except only tacticals can be transported in them which means if you want to use any drop pods your army cannot include terminators or scouts. Thus your army is more like a tank and bike army with some drop pod tacticals. Or can you instead drop the vehicles from some formations (in favour of a thunderhawk) and then replace the remaining tactical formations' rhinos with drop pods?

So, does anyone have any ideas about how to make a drop pod play style more prominent or more interesting? It would be really cool IMO to have a viable all-pod army, but to do that with only tacticals is incredibly boring. What about letting bikes and scouts use them? (Still with the same "all or nothing" restriction). This could make the tactic work much better than in the codex list, because both scouts and bikes have a much better chance of getting into combat after the drop due to their speed/infiltrate. Maybe even let terminators in pods too, although something would have to be done about the cost disparity as you're replacing land raiders not rhinos. No way am I paying 650 points (plus the spaceship) for 4 terminators in drop pods.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:13 pm 
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bikes, assault marines and scouts, (scouts especially) can't use drop pods because 150-200 points for deathwind is overwhelmingly powerful....

again, you can make an 'all drop' list with the codex list, that's kinda their 'thing'

but yeah, the all-drop whitescar list is bonkers....

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:10 am 
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Wow i didn't know that rule existed. i think for the reasons you mention it is misplaced in the white scars. if you're going to have a chapter that goes big on drop pods then start with one that at least has access to devs and 'naughts.

First strike assault weapons don't work very well with attack bikes so it's going to create another reason not to take attack bikes which I think is a shame.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:15 am 
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Well my intention was to make it different from how the codex list does pods, otherwise what is the point? It can already do the static drop style so that is covered. White scars don't have those static units hence I figured a white scars pod build could be made something distinct from codex. But meh.

Think we'll have to disagree on "overwhelmingly powerful", devs pay more because the formation is worth more, not because of deathwind. They trade rhinos remember. Obviously bikes would have to pay because they don't have rhinos, but scouts would be potentially worth more because of infiltrate. Likewise assaults can't be podded in codex because a) they are much faster and, again, b) don't have rhinos to trade.

Meh, not really bothered if that's not what white scars are supposed to be, I'm just going by the rules in the list and the original design notes. As it stands the transport rules and list structure just makes the list look unfinished IMO.

Just scrap the dumb drop pod restriction then, and fix some other oddities. For instance why do terminators have "plus transport" and a special part of the rule to say that means they get land raiders - why not just list the formation as having land raiders? They can't go in pods anyway, and nobody is going to pay that to put them in a thunderhawk. Or let them go in a thunderhawk at the same price as codex. It's like the list can't make up its mind. The same effect could be achieved by saying "white scars can never be deployed on foot".

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:25 am 
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You could make the fist strike a unit ability to represent the lightning attack rather than lances. Not sure it's justifiable though. Or think up some other thing attack bikes can get instead like ignore -1 for doubling but also +1 for sustain.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
You could make the fist strike a unit ability to represent the lightning attack rather than lances.

Wouldn't that mean they get FS in Firefight too OR would require a special note. Not seeing how that's any better than (Assault Weapon), FS

Kyrt wrote:
Or think up some other thing attack bikes can get instead like ignore -1 for doubling but also +1 for sustain.

Yeah but has anyone ever actually sustained with a bike? ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:06 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
You could make the fist strike a unit ability to represent the lightning attack rather than lances.

Wouldn't that mean they get FS in Firefight too OR would require a special note. Not seeing how that's any better than (Assault Weapon), FS

Kyrt wrote:
Or think up some other thing attack bikes can get instead like ignore -1 for doubling but also +1 for sustain.

Yeah but has anyone ever actually sustained with a bike? ;D

It would mean they get FS in firefight yes, ie it would be representing their style of attack rather than lances. Like I say though, not sure it's justifiable. Attack quickly all you like, I'm still gonna see and hear you coming.

Just trying to think up alternatives.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Discuss Whitescars-Trial 2016! [hilarity ensues]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:09 pm 
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Ahhh gotcha

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