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Dark Angels v1.2 The long slog to NetEA

 Post subject: Dark Angels v1.2 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:33 am 
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Hey Guys

A new version of the Dark Angels list starts here.
This list has seen some theory development over the last 4 months between work and has been shared around a fair few Epic players for critique and comments. The basis of where we started was from Angel_of_Caliban and props to him for getting us to where we are now and for starting the DA love.

I ran the old list fairly exstensivly and even took it to Castle Assault 2015 here in Australia so i could get a feel of how it performed againsta variety of opponents and armies over two solid days of gaming. This gave me some insight as what could be done to improve said list and where it's strengths and faults were.

A few points on the design principles of moving forward

1. Try to bring it in line with the current fluff and Codexes we've seen GW release for the Dark Angels in the recent years
2. Hunt for the fallen: A unique Victory condition. This rule still needs testing, I ran a flavor of the rule at CA2015 in Autralia last year and it was pretty well recieved, if anything we've made it even fairer since then.
3. No Titan or Navy support, this should be a list around the Dark Angels hunting there fallen bretheran or information about them. So everything needs to be kept on the down low so just Marine bros
4. Army Building structure: We've tried to go for a strong emphasis on the Deathwing and Ravenwing formations for hunting the fallen, but don't want to force you into taking formations that are dreadfully expensive and limit your army building abilities, I'd love to see a few different flavoured lists spawn out of this structure (Heavy RW or HEavy DW or Ironwing with plenty of Tactical and Devestators).

Points of Contention
A major points I'm guessing will come up fast so remember this is version 1.0 for most of you, we're happy to change and modify things

No Hunters: Dark Angels don't have access to them anymore so we took them out, in fact the only ground based AA in this list is the Mortis DreadnoughtWhich brings us to the big one Flyers.... I know this will cause some issues

In the current books and fluff the Nephilim and Dark Talon are fairly represented and popular so we needed to get them in the list. This is also where your real AA options will come from as the Mortis is sevealy limited in it's roll. We are not set in stone with the points or stats but this should be an air superiority fighter. I think 225 is probably a fair start point, these things are pretty good. Compared to Thunderbolts they have greater AA, AP and AT capability plus a 1+ initiative. You’ll be guaranteed to get CAP with them early on and they’re pretty effective AA deterent, but with carefull planning can be countered.

Bloat: A few people will look at the list and see too many options, we honestly want to keep plenty of options around in the list so you can build the Dark Angel force you want, wether Heavy RW or HEavy DW or Ironwing, but we're also amendable to removing things if people see them as too supurfolus (Things have already been lost from the list in previous incarnations getting to this point).


So yes, here we are with version 1.0, It's still rough but a lot of effort has been put into the theory side. Battle testing here in Australia will start in 2 months (I have a Blood Bowl tournament on our main club day next month so that's out) but I'm hoping some fellow gamers will help out with testing in there corners of the world
against various lists.



So give me your thoughts! Point out my newest spelling errors! Suggest better point allocations for formations! Let's keep it civil and make a new revitalised first legion list!

MAKE CALIBAN GREAT AGAIN!


-Mard


Version 1.0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifyiy81m28hme ... 0.pdf?dl=0

Version 1.2
List
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkpbxczo7agjo ... 2.pdf?dl=0
Stats
https://www.dropbox.com/s/krntynh6rafth ... S.pdf?dl=0



Changelog from 1.0-1.1
Changelog for Ver1.1
* Ravenwing Rules: All bikes lose scout, will limit teleport homers to attack bikes for testing
* Hunt for the Fallen: REword final sentance to "This replaces the Blitz victory condition for the Dark Angel player"
* Space Marine Transport: Renamed and changed to Dark Angel Transports: All options for Drop pods removed
* Deathwing Formation: Removed option to bump unit up to formation of 6
* Hunter upgade returned
* Ironwing: Added option take Hunter upgrade
* Tactical Line COmpany: Added Hunter upgrade, removed Deathwing Support and Ironwing Support
* Devestator: Removed old Plasma upgrade, Added Hunter Upgrade, removed Ironwing Support
* Executioner Upgrade should read: Replace any pair of Predator Annihilators with a pair of Preadator Executioners.
* Nephilim: Prices up to 250, Heavy Bolter brought back to 15cm range
* Dark Talon: Prices up to 250, Stasis Bomp changed to 1BP and continualuse for now for testing, loses disrupt
*Landing Craft: Removed - Going for ground pound so unit removed
*Land Raider: Added Hunter Support
*Whirlwind: Added Hunter Support
*Vindicator: Added Hunter Support
*Relic - Removed Falchion from list
*Glaive: Rework - Price upped to 325, DC upped to 4DC, Quad Lascannon split into left and right arcs. Volkite Carronade changed to 45cm 3BP MW IC, Disrupt
Currently in line with IF approved Falchion stats with pricing and DC strength and other weapons - though missing demolisher and different main armament
*Ravenwing Black Knights: Change profile to Infantry Will ask thread on where to go, currently a free option to trade up two normal bikes for a +1 better in FF
*Supreme Commander: Loses Fearless
*Company Master: left out Invulnerable Save by accident in profile
*Interrogator Chaplain: left out Invulnerable Save by accident in profile
*Deathwing Librairan: left out Invulnerable Save by accident in profile
*Land Speeder Vengence: Looses MW FF
*Land Speeder Darkshroud: Changes to support playstyle - Grants cover to all friendly units within it's zone of control
*Removing all drop pods and planetfall abilities
*Land Raider Achillies: Brought into line with IF stats
*Land Raider Crusader: Brought into line with current stats
*Renamed Thunderhawk Gunship: Renamed to Dark Angel THunderhawk Gunship to remove planetfall ability

Changelog 1.1 - 1.2
*Tidied up formatting
*Removed Battle Barge
*Renamed Strike cruiser to "Dark Angels Strike Cruiser" removed plantefall options in Spacecraft
*Limited LR Achillies to 0-2 upgrade option in formation to keep in line with IH list
*"This replaces the Blitz victory condition for the Dark Angel player" now changed to "This replaces the Blitzkrieg victory condition for the Dark Angel player
*"Deathwing Tactics" upgrade Changed to "Deathwing Knights"
* Deathwing Tactics added: Increase formation to 6 for 175 points
* Dark Talon: Stasis Bomp changed to 2BP IC (Similar to Chaos Bomber)
* Ravenwing Black Knight upgrade: now 25pts for 2, 3+ CC FS, 3+ FF


Last edited by Mard on Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:12 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:53 am 
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Interesting, I'd be up for testing this in a couple of months when RL has calmed down. As you say the hunt the fallen rule will need testing.

Running up some lists I'd be concerned that the list will always revolve around the Ravenwing. Mortis as the only AA will be pretty subpar as dreads just don't work in EA so you're going to want 2 formations of fighters to provide air cover. Once you've bought the 2 RW to get the RW support slots then you've spent 850pts minimum. As you've already made that points investment then you're building your list around that theme+that tactic so DW particularly might be a luxury that it is seldom taken

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:37 am 
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Hi Mard. Good to see new life in the list :) I had a quick perusal and came up with some Qs and typos.

There's a typo in the Landing Craft speed - "bo,ber

Is there a reason the Black Knights are considered LV instead of bike? Seems odd.

The Mortis Dread leaves something to be desired and seems to be a static point defense rather than a mobile AA platform. I imagine it will likely not be taken often as Steve mentions.

I haven't read the new codex but are Relics available to the DA?. Isn't 2 in 3k list more than the IF list? Is there a reasoning for this? IF are 0-1 right? IIRc these are super rare items.

Given few ppl play Marines without Warhounds these days I see the Executioners being an auto-include** item for the MW shooting. The same for LS Vengeance.

Land Speeder Vengeance upgrade seems cheap for it's stats. I think it's an auto upgrade** with the MW and MW4+FF

** of course points and personal choice will dictate, but I doubt most tourney players will go without them as the Marines lack for MW.

Deathwing Knights - What's the thinking on why they're 2+CC with the shield and mace? Does the shield count as a CC weapon in the codex or is the mace a very strong weapon?

Land Speeder Tornado has a typo in the ref sheet. "Torando"

Does the LR Achilles have a suped-up Multi-Melta in other lists(or a GW upgrade name)? I thought MM were 15cm range.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:35 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Hi Mard. Good to see new life in the list :) I had a quick perusal and came up with some Qs and typos.

There's a typo in the Landing Craft speed - "bo,ber

Cheers will fix for next release :)

Dobbsy wrote:
Is there a reason the Black Knights are considered LV instead of bike? Seems odd.



Nope, should be Bike as well, will fix them as well

Dobbsy wrote:
The Mortis Dread leaves something to be desired and seems to be a static point defense rather than a mobile AA platform. I imagine it will likely not be taken often as Steve mentions.



True, but I'm adamant on sticking to no Hunters, it's there for people who want to run a blitz gaurd, or TH in a unit with a dread mid board

Dobbsy wrote:
I haven't read the new codex but are Relics available to the DA?. Isn't 2 in 3k list more than the IF list? Is there a reasoning for this? IF are 0-1 right? IIRc these are super rare items.


Looking at the approved IF list Relic are not resticted 0-1.
Forgeworld does have rules for these super heavies in 40k lists, and if anyone has a relic or two still around It would be the 1st Legion

Dobbsy wrote:
Given few ppl play Marines without Warhounds these days I see the Executioners being an auto-include** item for the MW shooting. The same for LS Vengeance.

Land Speeder Vengeance upgrade seems cheap for it's stats. I think it's an auto upgrade** with the MW and MW4+FF

** of course points and personal choice will dictate, but I doubt most tourney players will go without them as the Marines lack for MW.



These prices are definitely subject to change, but we have to start testing somewhere :)

Dobbsy wrote:
Deathwing Knights - What's the thinking on why they're 2+CC with the shield and mace? Does the shield count as a CC weapon in the codex or is the mace a very strong weapon?


This is actually just a Re-skin of the Assault Terminators for Dark Angels, and yes Maces of Absolution do a fair wack o damage.


Dobbsy wrote:
Land Speeder Tornado has a typo in the ref sheet. "Torando"


Cheers, will fix for next release

Dobbsy wrote:
Does the LR Achilles have a suped-up Multi-Melta in other lists(or a GW upgrade name)? I thought MM were 15cm range.


Good pickup, typo there and it should be 15cm


Always happy for questions Dobbsy and constructive feedback, cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:05 am 
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On hunt for the fallen, what about making it the opponent's choice if that condition is implemented, not the DA player's choice? Or, make it compulsory (not sure that's a good idea).

Having it optional and at the DA players choice once they see enemy list seems a bit gamey?. This is more of a change than, say, necrons replacing their blitz with a tomb complex as part of the list. Fallen changes enemy stuff and DA can choose.

Another point on fallen that might not come up through testing depending on the lists – you remove a garrison location. If I force opponent the use Fallen for their blitz, not only do i change a VC, but i force them not to be able to garrison off their bltiz. How is this compensated for? Or can i deploy units off the fallen formation on garrison as if the the fallen formation is an objective?

Mard wrote:
A few people will look at the list and see too many options

Well … yeah …

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:29 am 
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I think the fallen rule isn't perhaps intended to replace the blitz objective but the victory condition. So the physical objective still exists. Otherwise it's comically good for the DA player because it also denies the opponent the DtF victory condition.

However, honestly I think this rule still has big problems. Against some armies it is just going to be trivially easy to achieve. And where it is not easy, you simply don't use it. I mean, it can only ever be to the advantage of the DA player but that advantage is hugely variable. How can you possibly balance that? When it comes to it there are quite a lot of edge cases and covering them all will make for a very inelegant rule. You could make it that the opponent chooses but then you have the opposite problem - you're only going to do it if it is clearly to your advantage, and you could do some weird things like nominate guardians in the webway, never bring them on, and meanwhile not have to worry about your blitz.

I could understand if this was a defining rule of the DA that had to be made to work at all costs, but does it really bring that much to the list? To me it just seems not fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:46 am 
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The nephilim are much improved over their old ridiculous stats, with initiative 1+ perhaps still slightly undercosted but the list can't afford to make its only real AA any more expensive. Maybe bringing the range of the heavy bolter down to 15 would make it less extreme and add a bit more nuance to a unit that's currently just really good at everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:58 am 
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Phew, I dont know wehre to start. First, I think I should just use my current Marine army as Dark Angels as they are clearly the better army, with no drawbacks whatsoever! Great! I finally have good AP options, Macro everywhere and finally a good way to kill all those stupid titans, superheavies and whatsoever. Blimey, everything is on 1+? And my supreme commander is fearless, too!

God bless the power creep!

In all seriousness though,

What

The

darn.

Perhaps this is considered offensive, but do you guys play another version of this game downunder? And I wont tackle "Hunt for The Fallen" as it is clearly meant as a joke and only applies to friendly games. At least I hope so.

Lets go line for line:

Terminators - There is sensible reason why Terminators should be allowed to increase to 6 stands. Thats 12 BM to break em and suddenly you have a tough as nails BTS. Given the list design I am curious why you did not add Teleport to the Flak-Dreads.

Ravenwing - Why is Scout for free? There is NO reason whatsoever for this. NO reason. The Ravenwing Knight is a joke too. You boost a Space Marine Bike (ARM 4+ FF 5+ CC 4+) to (3+/3+3+) for 12.5 pts. Oh, boohoohoo, you became LV. A single Trike will probably in there anyway for pinging.

Ironwing - Hmm, the only drawbacks Pred A formations had was the numbers. Well, luckily you solved that by making the option to add up to two, which was unique to the scions of iron, which suffer from having less infantry in the Tactical formations. Plus you can add Macro to a 4+ Armour 30cm speed tank (AV). Oh and its luckily the same range as a Lascannon. Did I mention that its again only 12.5 pts for the MW boost?

I could do this with all formations you changed. Why are Tacticals the same cost as regulars with a boost on AP and AT? Why are Devastators priced the same given the same boost? The 15cm is not important in most cases as I want the marines in FF range anyway. Or I droppod them.
Land Speeders. Give them an Assault Cannon AND a bettter Macroweapon. Boost MW to 4+, I mean, its annoying to only hit on sixes on doubles, I get that. Only 12.5pts AGAIN, we dont want to make em too pricey, no one may take them!
Superheavies. Oh Okay, you took the Warhound out. Fair enough. Luckily I have my Scouting bikes all over the place PLUS a TSKNF-DC3+ Superheavy with a 2xD3 gun. This means, you will ALWAYS do 2dc damage when you hit, this is probably the most reliable Titan Killer weapon in the game. PLUS it is FASTER than a Shadowsword. PLUS it has Thick Rear Armour. AND 4 shots AT4+. And you price it at 75pts MORE than a (lousy in comparison) Shadowsword. ugh.
The other one again is a neat way to gain long range ignore cover disrupt shots off. Plus its cheaper than its cousin, still both cost at tops the same as a single Warhound, each. Did I mention TSKNF?
OH AND THE BET PART? You can make them FEARLESS by putting your Supreme Commander in it.
Why the Supreme commander is Fearless eludes me as well.
Luckily you provide another present, the best aircraft for Marines so far. There is a Macro Weapon Bomber, which is Type Fighter/Bomber, so he can CAP or Intercept, with a better armour than a Thunderbolt and the ability to Auto-cap or just auto-strife. Luckily I only have to pay 12.5pts LESS per Flyer for that, compared to the Marauder Bombers.
And the other one? 2 shots AP3/AT5 1 shot AP4+/AA5+ and one shot AT5+/AA5+. Of COURSE all those wepons have 30cm range so you dont have to think about risking stuff like defensive fire from defending air planes. AND you again activate on 1+. Not bad, again a bargain at 12.5pts

Oh what are the drawbacks?
- Non existing list restrictions as I will get the units I want anyway
- No Hunters (but the best flyers for Marines so far!)
- No Warhounds (but two better suited, cheaper SHTs)



Seriously, try again.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:13 am 
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Largo_W wrote:
Phew, I dont know wehre to start. First, I think I should just use my current Marine army as Dark Angels as they are clearly the better army, with no drawbacks whatsoever! Great! I finally have good AP options, Macro everywhere and finally a good way to kill all those stupid titans, superheavies and whatsoever. Blimey, everything is on 1+? And my supreme commander is fearless, too!

God bless the power creep!

In all seriousness though,

What

The

darn.

Perhaps this is considered offensive, but do you guys play another version of this game downunder? And I wont tackle "Hunt for The Fallen" as it is clearly meant as a joke and only applies to friendly games. At least I hope so.

Lets go line for line:

Terminators - There is sensible reason why Terminators should be allowed to increase to 6 stands. Thats 12 BM to break em and suddenly you have a tough as nails BTS. Given the list design I am curious why you did not add Teleport to the Flak-Dreads.

Ravenwing - Why is Scout for free? There is NO reason whatsoever for this. NO reason. The Ravenwing Knight is a joke too. You boost a Space Marine Bike (ARM 4+ FF 5+ CC 4+) to (3+/3+3+) for 12.5 pts. Oh, boohoohoo, you became LV. A single Trike will probably in there anyway for pinging.

Ironwing - Hmm, the only drawbacks Pred A formations had was the numbers. Well, luckily you solved that by making the option to add up to two, which was unique to the scions of iron, which suffer from having less infantry in the Tactical formations. Plus you can add Macro to a 4+ Armour 30cm speed tank (AV). Oh and its luckily the same range as a Lascannon. Did I mention that its again only 12.5 pts for the MW boost?

I could do this with all formations you changed. Why are Tacticals the same cost as regulars with a boost on AP and AT? Why are Devastators priced the same given the same boost? The 15cm is not important in most cases as I want the marines in FF range anyway. Or I droppod them.
Land Speeders. Give them an Assault Cannon AND a bettter Macroweapon. Boost MW to 4+, I mean, its annoying to only hit on sixes on doubles, I get that. Only 12.5pts AGAIN, we dont want to make em too pricey, no one may take them!
Superheavies. Oh Okay, you took the Warhound out. Fair enough. Luckily I have my Scouting bikes all over the place PLUS a TSKNF-DC3+ Superheavy with a 2xD3 gun. This means, you will ALWAYS do 2dc damage when you hit, this is probably the most reliable Titan Killer weapon in the game. PLUS it is FASTER than a Shadowsword. PLUS it has Thick Rear Armour. AND 4 shots AT4+. And you price it at 75pts MORE than a (lousy in comparison) Shadowsword. ugh.
The other one again is a neat way to gain long range ignore cover disrupt shots off. Plus its cheaper than its cousin, still both cost at tops the same as a single Warhound, each. Did I mention TSKNF?
OH AND THE BET PART? You can make them FEARLESS by putting your Supreme Commander in it.
Why the Supreme commander is Fearless eludes me as well.
Luckily you provide another present, the best aircraft for Marines so far. There is a Macro Weapon Bomber, which is Type Fighter/Bomber, so he can CAP or Intercept, with a better armour than a Thunderbolt and the ability to Auto-cap or just auto-strife. Luckily I only have to pay 12.5pts LESS per Flyer for that, compared to the Marauder Bombers.
And the other one? 2 shots AP3/AT5 1 shot AP4+/AA5+ and one shot AT5+/AA5+. Of COURSE all those wepons have 30cm range so you dont have to think about risking stuff like defensive fire from defending air planes. AND you again activate on 1+. Not bad, again a bargain at 12.5pts

Oh what are the drawbacks?
- Non existing list restrictions as I will get the units I want anyway
- No Hunters (but the best flyers for Marines so far!)
- No Warhounds (but two better suited, cheaper SHTs)



Seriously, try again.


Was not going to bother replying to the thread till after the weekend when people have a chance to look at the list, calm down and give some constructive feedback, in helpful terms.

But had to come back just to say thanks for being a <snip> largo, real helpful and constructive there

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:19 am 
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The whole list has a massive boost in power compared to the regular codex list, there are no drawbacks and the points are ridicoulusly low. Reduce the sarcasm and you would not even bothered to read it. I was just beeing frank, the list is going to destroy your tournament scene in this format.

Furthermore, you will not insult me.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:21 am 
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I think weve got the problem of trying to shoe-horn new 40k units into the new lists. But the new 40k stuff is deep into the "all new units HAVE to be more powerful/better armed/better armoured than the units that they 'replace' " mindset to keep players buying the new units to repace their old ones.

If we did a new 40k list with all the new units and all of their new weapons and try and port them directly to EA we'll end up with the 'power creep' thats so prevalent in 40k these days.

I have to agree with Largo to be honest - when i run Codex Marines id just run this list because with all the Codex options and more it just gives everything without taking any options away.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:18 pm 
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Hi Mard

Thanks for taking the time to work on the list. I believe what you have come up with is great base to work with to advance and develop the dark angel list. While I think the list needs a lot of testing and polishing there are some things I really like. I like the different wings as part of the core choice that unlock different choices further in the army. This is different from the standard codex Astartes list who can choose everything straight off the bat. I like the plasma theme for the infantry and again this feels like a good balance and which is different to the standard list. I am happy to help test this list with you.

Largo, mate I would ask you to consider the way in which you respond. We are a small community playing an awesome game that is purely fan driven. The way in which you deliver your opinion is not condusive for growth of our great little game.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:19 pm 
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Seems to me that he is putting forth a proposed list to be weighed and tested.
Mard has taken the time to helm this and proffer his ideas. Attempting to shut him down with a hysterical rant does nothing but to enforce how woeful this forum can be.

I agree the list looks strong, though an attempt at selection based restrictions has been made and weighed with adjusting points and further development of units and balance.
The expense of these units will certainly restrict the lists overall power.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:21 pm 
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Well I am done with the Troll list, enjoy your game

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Call me old fashioned but one of the hallmarks of good design, for me, has always been restraint. The original SG lists show this well, but I have to agree that GW are not good at this any more and this is what caused the aggro over the DAs in the first place - you can't just port stuff to EA as-is and expect it to work. Hence we had all those arguments about the aircraft, and a lot of people left exasperated with AoC not being willing to drastically depart from 40K stats etc.

Let's remember though, those nephilim are much better now than they were. Points can be adjusted, units can come down in power, so let's not get too worked up over those. At this stage I think it's important not to go straight back into aggro but equally we do need to get the fundamentals of the list right - and do it now. List structure, and the overall theme of the list. Because of the history of the list, i would argue it is more important than ever to see restraint, and although I wouldn't put it the way largo did, perhaps it is better to put out a list that you are confident is under powered first - all those freebies are risking alienating people, even if in your opinion they are offset elsewhere. Maybe tot up each of the changes from codex and think honestly - "what am I giving up for this one". If it's not essential to make it feel dark angels, it can probably go for the time being. Currently it does feel like a "kid in a sweet shop" approach, and there is so much extra in there that maybe something big has to be dropped - like thunderhawks. If you don't like that then some serious cutting is probably in order. You could increase a bunch of prices but personally I don't think that tends to produce good results - you end up with loads of really expensive formations that are costed appropriately individually but are not fun to play against and don't actually perform well as an army. Better to use conservative stats.

By way of example look at the land speeders. You've added two new ones, both awesome, and not removed any. You could just as easily have dropped any 2 of the original three, as well as losing MW FF from the vengeance (why does it even have it?). That would be restraint. Then the darkshroud, did it really have to be cover AND inv save for the whole formation AND an additional unit?

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