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Codex Marines - the big discussion – fluff split

 Post subject: Codex Marines - the big discussion – fluff split
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:41 pm 
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colm wrote:
I just wish it looked more like a company.

Well, you don't have to deviate that far from that list to get an army that's built around a battle company.

Tactical + SC + Hunter
Tactical
Assault
Devastator
Scout
Terminator
Land Speeders
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Strike Cruiser
1 Warhound
Thunderbolts

With about 100 points spare for characters or similar.

It's probably not a perfectly optimised list for competitive tournament play (a second Warhound would be a better choice than the second Tactical detachment), but it's not ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:26 pm 
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AxelFendersson wrote:
It's probably not a perfectly optimised list for competitive tournament play (a second Warhound would be a better choice than the second Tactical detachment), but it's not ridiculous.


That the core of *ALL* Space Marine forces is regarded as a sub-optimal choice is something that does stand out like rotten fruit in buffet though.

At least it's taken out all the pressure from my own building/playing Space Marines. I'll just throw every game deliberately because I'd rather pick an army that fits fluff than something that ignores that and goes with winning as the goal. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:23 am 
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AxelFendersson wrote:
colm wrote:
I just wish it looked more like a company.

Well, you don't have to deviate that far from that list to get an army that's built around a battle company
.


Yes, quite right and that is what I do, though the poor old assault marines of the company are always represented in the Speeders or on Bikes. Still, I can come close enough be happy and still have fun games. The biggest change is to drop a Warhound for more Tacticals

It is funny how assault marines are actually too squishy and don't hit hard enough to be good in assaults, but are half decent jumping between cover to be annoying late game objective grabbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:03 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
AxelFendersson wrote:
It's probably not a perfectly optimised list for competitive tournament play (a second Warhound would be a better choice than the second Tactical detachment), but it's not ridiculous.


That the core of *ALL* Space Marine forces is regarded as a sub-optimal choice is something that does stand out like rotten fruit in buffet though.

At least it's taken out all the pressure from my own building/playing Space Marines. I'll just throw every game deliberately because I'd rather pick an army that fits fluff than something that ignores that and goes with winning as the goal. :)


Keep in mind that you can count the crew of land speeders as assault marines for working out your company allocation. So even if you don't have assault marines as a formation, they are still on the field in the speeder formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Keep in mind that you can count the crew of land speeders as assault marines for working out your company allocation. So even if you don't have assault marines as a formation, they are still on the field in the speeder formation.


Very true, but I don't recall seeing all Battle companies having Land Speeders in their deployment tables. Something I'll have to look at, because I'm only a little obsessive like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:56 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that they were all equipped with land speeders but I'm sure that they were crewed by marines from the reserve Assault company. Going by memory of my recent re-reading of 2nd ed codex ultramarines

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:26 pm 
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For the edification of those interested, in Codex doctrine, the second through fifth companies (battle companies) can all deploy their assault marines as land speeder or bike units. Hooray!

So, two tactical detachments, a devastator and two land speeeder units for a battle company. Not SO bad!


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:18 am 
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Being a 'fluffyphobe' and never having read any of the literature, how would the tacticals be fielded in the blurb, what additional goodies would they normally use?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:58 am 
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And who drives the tanks?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:58 pm 
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Mainly crewed/captained by tech Marines. i's another one of those "GW didn't really think this out well" deals. Obviously there is a certain amount of "extras" in a company to account for transport / armour crew, likely the commander of the vehicle being a techie most often unless you're dealing with a non-codex chapter. Meh... do whatever head - cannon works for you in my book. For instance I am all about a chapter have a couple hundred tech marines outside the "standard order of battle" so, yay. :spin

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:02 pm 
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I read somewhere on here that it was 9th company devastators. I've never seen that in an official source though.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:03 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I read somewhere on here that it was 9th company devastators. I've never seen that in an official source though.


Oddly, I have a recollection of the same thing, vaguely thinking it was from something in an old SM/epic book. As far as the 2e books go though, the following excerpts (pages 18, 30, 35, 36) seem to answer it:
Codex Ultramarines wrote:
In addition, the Marines of the 6th and 7th Companies can also act as crews for large, independent formation of the various armoured vehicles deployed by the Chapter. Thus the Chapter is able to field entire companies of Land Raiders or Predator battle tanks, for example.

Codex Ultramarines wrote:
All Space Marines are ablke to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads qhich provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal.

Codex Ultramarines, listed under the Razorback wrote:
Each Space Marine Chapter maintains a huge arsenal of special wargear which include variations on the basic Rhino and other armoured vehicles...The crews of these vehicles are drawn from the ranks of training and reserve units, and they bear special insignia in place of their usual tactical badges."

So, all marines can crew vehicles, but it appears the armour is manned by 6/7th Tacticals. Sorry Jimmster. :P


And more generally, some random details on company formation:

Each Company has it's own chaplain, apothecary, standard bearer and captain. Librarians and Techmarines are drawn from the Chapter's Librarius and Armoury respectively.

1 company is the Veteran company, coloured white, and it is the only company to maintain a permanent establishment of Land Raider transports.

2-5 are Battle companies, coloured yellow, red, green and black, the Assault squads of which may be deployed as Bike-mounted or Land Speeder crews.

6-7 are Tactical companies, coloured orange and purple, with the 6th trained and able to be deployed entirely as Bike squadrons and the 7th trained and able to fight as Land Speeder units. The 7th is specifically also trained to act as a light vehicle reserve formation.

8 company is an Assault company, coloured grey, often deployed with jump packs, or as Bike or Land Speeder units.

9 company is the Devastator company, coloured blue, and has no mention of anything besides being used to bolster defensive points or provide long-range support is made. It shows only Rhinos and Dreadnoughts in it's permanent strength.

10 company are the scouts, with no formal size for this formation. Interestingly, this company is listed as NOT maintaining a permanent Rhino transport capacity.


Mmmm, fluff.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:35 am 
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I assume that's because, as I remember, in SM2 (and perhaps in the fluff) scout platoons didn't come with rhinos. I was a little surprised they now (in epic:A) had them as standard when I re-discovered epic a couple of years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:18 am 
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So in the fluff we have learned that the veteran and battle companies may use the reserve 6th and 7th companies as drivers and auxiliaries. But my question is still whether this was unusual or actually the norm; whether the battle companies and especially the 1st would always be deployed with a significant arsenal of additional 'war gear'; vehicles, other transport, heavy weapons teams etc. And what that would look like in E:A terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines - the big discussion
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:53 am 
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Ginger wrote:
So in the fluff we have learned that the veteran and battle companies may use the reserve 6th and 7th companies as drivers and auxiliaries. But my question is still whether this was unusual or actually the norm; whether the battle companies and especially the 1st would always be deployed with a significant arsenal of additional 'war gear'; vehicles, other transport, heavy weapons teams etc. And what that would look like in E:A terms.

It depends on how GW were feeling with each codex. Also depends on the chapter. in 3rd ed 40k codex ultramarines had 7 lander raiders in the 1st Coy and 12 in the general armoury. 19 LR for the entire chapter. Companies had 1–7 dreads, excepting the scout coy. I'd say that heavy concentrations of armour used to be very rare (outside of Sons of Medusa) but is more common in recent editions of fluff (gotta sell those tank kits!). It also depends on the type of deployment, it's harder to air deploy/drop the tanks.

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