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EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback

 Post subject: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:29 am 
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Played a game against David Last's Thousand Son's last night, I used a list which should be compatible with any Thunderhawk moving in to 1/3 support changes.

The two thinks that struck me:

Furioso Dreadnoughts are no where near as good as Sister's Pentient Engines and far weaker than Defilers than one would expect. The main issue is their ff and lack of a shooting attack which are by no way compensated by their cc ability, atsknf, or the fact they can be air transported. The result, they're a rare sight!

I would recommend that the dreadnought close combat weapon on all space marine dreadnoughts incorporates a heavy flamer with all the shooting and ff abilities that entails. It would give all dreadnoughts a welcome boost, and would make the Furioso a close up monster (ff 4+ IC!), but it's not going to be game breaking.

Attack bikes.... please can they loose LV?


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:46 am 
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Good ideas!

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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:19 am 
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I second that! (Having just painted a BA army with 2 dreadnoughts...)

And when on topic, do we need a NetEA approved list? Or are we satisfied with the EpicUK list?


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:42 am 
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Given how poor an upgrade SM Dreadnoughts are and how rarely they're taken statting them with the Heavy Flamer on the power first arm (rather than a Storm Bolter that is ignored in Epic terms) would make them a more appealing proposition. Good idea!


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Elrik wrote:
I second that! (Having just painted a BA army with 2 dreadnoughts...)

And when on topic, do we need a NetEA approved list? Or are we satisfied with the EpicUK list?


Old White Dwarfs lead me to think BA armies are the most quintessentially "Epic" armies out there, everyone should have one!

Can we keep this thread to discussing the EUK BA list, anyone interested in NetEA could miss discussion on here given the title.


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Is the proposition that both ordinary dread and Furioso have FF 4+ IC?
Then the difference would be: Assault Cannon attack + 1 heavy flamer attack VS 2 heavy flamer attacks and +1 cc-attack MW.
Is that comparable?


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Elrik wrote:
Is the proposition that both ordinary dread and Furioso have FF 4+ IC?
Then the difference would be: Assault Cannon attack + 1 heavy flamer attack VS 2 heavy flamer attacks and +1 cc-attack MW.
Is that comparable?


Yes, what you've stated is how I'd see this change looking.

Unless you specifically need a long range shooting attack the Furioso would be superior to a regular Dreadnought.

However..... the Furioso is a fluff unit unique to the BA list so seeing a predominance of them wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, they're not game breaking, and wouldn't justify any additional cost.

I'd be tempted to say the same of Baal Predators, should they cost more than Destructors? BA players forgo access to certain units but then either pay a premium for their unique units and formations or at least what their value to a codex army would be. Death Company are great but they are a compulsory formation and very one dimensional, it doesn't feel like that is taken into account in their cost. The BA list feels handicapped rather than different, I look at the DA list with envy!

For the time being I'm satisfied to raise the plight of units that are just bad choices under almost any circumstances; Furiosos and Attack Bikes.


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:42 pm 
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I with you, just asked to have understand/get to know. Having a "better sub-par unit" (dreads) than the Codex marines is totally ok. Will the death company dreads get heavy flamers as well?

The Baals I think should be more expensive than Destructors, since they are better and you don't have to buy a 300+ pts unit and/or some kind of delivery system to actually use them... As expensive as Annihilators? A better player than me has to answer that question.

I agree about handicapped/different. But I like the list.


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:52 pm 
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All marine dreadnoughts with dreadnought close combat weapons, including Death Company dreadnoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 am 
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Is that the problem with dreads though. They're just an awkward unit aren't they, because of their speed (and the fact they're an upgrade, which are activation killers). If air transporting or podding then they seem reasonably priced next to marine infantry, maybe ever so slightly over.

Attack bikes, well I would love them to be better as I have tons of them for white scars. Its a big change though and a departure from other similar units (single model small vehicles). If an attack bike isn't a light vehicle, what is? AT weapons aren't good against infantry because there's 5 of 'em.

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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:07 pm 
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I'd say Attack bikes should be infantry, yes they won't quite fit the basing rules but it's simple and balanced about right so why not?


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:20 pm 
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The question is then raised as to where do you stop with change. Do War Walkers, Broadsides and kills kans change as well?

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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:37 pm 
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We could change the assumed basing so that an Attack Bike becomes a stand with an Attack Bike and one extra regular bike mounted on the same base as well. There's the 3 models to count as infantry then (counting the two crew on the Attack Bike as two).

Sure, lots of people would keep using the Attack Bike on it's own but that would be fine for legacies sake.


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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:43 am 
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Seems hacky and a can of worms.

Sorry to be negative, I guess I just don't agree that it's a simple change. To me an attack bike is one of the units that is most clearly identifiable as a light vehicle, and wanting it to be better is not a good enough reason to make it impossible to hit with AT reasons. Just my view.

They should probably be cheaper than bikes its true. I gusss it could be done like swap 2 bikes for 3 attack bikes. But in the end it's also a role thing, the heavy bolter in particular just isn't that useful. Multi melta a different story (though attack bike variants is something I was thinking to propose for white scars eventually).

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 Post subject: Re: EUK Blood Angels/ Codex feedback
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
The question is then raised as to where do you stop with change. Do War Walkers, Broadsides and kills kans change as well?


Can we stick to Blood Angels + their Codex components.

If the community wants to be dogmatic about it and accept that Attack Bikes are as they are so as to fit with other race's units using the same mechanic, and that any alternative would be prohibitively confusing and complicated then there's really nothing more to be said.


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