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Proposed local and global Space Marine changes

 Post subject: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:51 pm 
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As per the Thunderhawk thread, I've got a few changes I'd like to put forward to the ERC for consideration, some are global changes I'd like adopting across the slew of marine lists, others may be more situational

-Thunderhawks moved to the 1/3 air/titans/allies allowance - The rationale behind this is simple, to prevent thunderhawk spam lists, if a space marine list has an unrestricted unit selection like the codex list, I want thunderhawks to be restricted. If the list has a different structure then provided the other limits prevent abuse, it can remain

-Vindicator formations to 225pts this is just a no brainer, they are never seen in lists and while I doubt this will do much to change that, they are simply not as valuable as even predator destructors and cost the same

- Vindicator upgrades to get a price break, 1 for 50pts, 2 for 75pts Vindicators make great, thematic additions to assault marines but the price of adding two is quite prohibitive

- Land Raider upgrades to get a price break, 1 for 75pts, 2 for 125pts For similar reasons to vindicators, land raider upgrades are rarely used, this and the vindicator change are already adopted in the Imperial Fists list and the sky hasn't fallen yet

Those changes I would like to submit directly for ERC consideration but I'm posting them here for folks to have their say

I'd also like the following tested:

Whirlwinds to 275pts

and the biggest, most contentious of them all....

Tacticals to FF3+ with NO POINTS CHANGE
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But Seriously, Tactical marines right now are basically slightly less than awful at most things, it would be great if they were a real threat in a FF engaging/supporting role rather than the dudes who babysit the supreme commander sat on the blitz on overwatch for 3 turns trying their hardest not to get broken.....

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Like the ideas. Do you think land raider upgrades+50 points is to cheap?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:02 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
Like the ideas. Do you think land raider upgrades+50 points is to cheap?


Not neccessarily, I just know that the price break above was tested quite a lot while we were developing the Imperial Fists, so we've got the data to back it up and demonstrate that it isn't a harmful change

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:03 pm 
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I may as well throw my thoughts into the pot.
Would we consider dropping the navy units completely and bringing in the newer marine fliers which are a core part of the army list these days (Storm Talon, Storm Raven, Storm Hawk)
It would be nice to see marines look something like they do now post 2010 rather than what they did back in 2003 (but that's just me and my ongoing crusade to update the marines :) ).

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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in order:
cool
cool
maybe
cool
cool
u wot

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Those changes look great! I'd also like to put forward Attack Bikes changing fro LVs to Infantry despite the fact it doesn't fit with the basing rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Most of the point drops seem fine; doubt they'll really encourage anyone to take any of these upgrades more often, but it'll throw a small bone to those already taking them.

Conveniently, if Whirlwinds go to 275 I could swap out the second warhound that no longer fits in my 1/3 with the t-hawk change for a unit of them. Easy peasy.

Willing to test the tacticals at 3+ FF when I get a chance. Seems like it might see them taken as more than SC+blitzguard, but also makes that blitz role for them a bit of a tougher nut to crack.


If I can get Dave to okay it I could try testing all of the above (Whirlwinds, t-hawks in 1/3, tacticals) at Adepticon this month.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:00 am 
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These generally sound good :)

I generally play my marines different than you most of you - on the ground, lots of vehicles, a couple of tactical and a devestator formation each with a single land raider plus a dedicated formation of them, ect. I do reasonably well with them that way, though ground armoured marines is less viable in the Epic-UK list. I think 50 point raiders would be too cheap but 2 for 125 is perfect.

Vindicators have already cost 225 in the approved Net-EA list in the TP for at least the last 3-4 years now :) They're not amazing but they do ok and I normally take one formation of them, the ability to move through cover helps them and opponents tend to prioritise other units instead.

Personally I'd love Land Speeder Storms and Stormtalons to replace scout Rhinos and Thunderbolts, but I'm not holding my hopes out.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:20 pm 
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I like all of the proposed, but the tactical ff probably need lots of plattest. Ff 3+ babysitters might be a too hard nut to crack.

Attack bikes need some kind of change, but making them inf is a slippery slope imo. Rather a points/size adjustment. Or a multinelta-version to be used as ”vyper” in bike formations... make a separate attack bike thread for ideas and testing?


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Yeah I'm pretty much in the same camp as Elrik. INF attack bikes is poppycock. Points and upgrades/flexibility to handle. They don't need to be uber - killy but probably need their own cycle. I'm actually going to suggest that we focus that one in Whitescars as they're where they'd be most used and then backport to Codex. Likewise. FF 3+ Tacticals is... weird. Perhaps they just need some cheaper upgrades and/or compulsory aspects? not sure

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 Post subject: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:07 pm 
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I’m in on ff 3+ tacticals. It’s basically only the difference between 3 hits and 4 for a 6 strong unit in ff which is a decent but hardly back breaking buff. At the moment they’re only good for blitz guard/bts denial (and they’re far from brilliant at that too).

Other changes seem fine. Not sure about attack bike LVs, as a load of other races have to deal with their equivalent being an LV. Maybe points drop/configuration change?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:19 pm 
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But doesn't that then have them butting their big asses into the devestators schtick?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Devs have better shooting though. I think theres difference enough with this. 1 possible change is to give tacs 1 missle launcher per 2 stands (like ig-shooting) to compensate for the FF change. If a nerf is needed for this buff that is...

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:33 pm 
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oh god no nerfs needed, poor things :)
I am just wondering how much that'll flip the script because while the extra shots are nice in Devs, if you're sitting around shooting at stuff across that map with Marines, you're doing it wrong! ;D Just wondering if this then makes devs really redundant. Hard to say what the effects. I guess we just test it and see what happens, amirite or amirite? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Given that part of the FF ability of a unit is their overall mobility, I'd say tactical marines easily justify the boost from a fluff standpoint, devs having to lug their heavy weapons around makes them more static and best in a supporting role.... Right now tactical marines are taken only as a token inclusion to bodyguard the supreme commander

Just think of it as a few primaris marines being added to the formation ;)

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