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Proposed local and global Space Marine changes

 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Dave wrote:
He can just put another suggestion forward after the 12 weeks.

Kyuss, are you PMing these to Steve?


I will do, but would rather just have to make one set of proposals

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:56 pm 
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I agree with Dave on the FF changes to Tacticals. I never play ground based lists without at least two formations of Tacticals. They might not be the best at adding fire support or shooting or at anything really, but they are a jack of all trades formation and adds a lot of staying power to the army. I have done very well with them in the Swedish tournaments, and also in EEC where my army contained two formations.

It's not a huge change (one extra hit in FF) so it might be hard to tell from play tests what difference it would make to the army, and also if this would make the formation more popular. I'll try to convince some of my regular opponents to do play tests anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:22 am 
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Looks like I'll be testing the t-hawks to 1/3 and the whirlwinds to 275 for 3 games this weekend. Both minor changes, essentially I'll just be telling my opponents "yeah, I would have otherwise had a second warhound in this list instead if not for the changes."


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Another minor thing I think should be fixed is the FF of the attack bikes. They have 5+ FF in NetEA lists vs. 4+ in Epic UK. I personally think 4+ makes more sense and it is also aligned with the proposed FF boost to the HB Razorback.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:58 pm 
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agreed (plus Whitescars need it :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:46 pm 
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For my part I'm behind anything which gives a boost to marines on the ground. Tournaments are different, but I just find playing air heavy lists in a friendly game just results in a less fun game (Maybe other gaming groups don't find this?) Therefore i would like to see marines stronger in more mixed configurations. (Would be interested to hear about how others play marines on the ground and win).

3+ FF Tacticals sound good. If it the devastators then need a change of roll how about FF 4+ but add some decent AT fire - or have they misplaced all their lascannons?

Personally i would have gone for a "1 Thawk per core battle formation" or similar as it currently rules out battle titans at 3k. Taking titans is already a handicap. Denying them even a little help from the air seems to make even a reaver a complete non-starter.

I'm completely with Kyrt on the internal imbalance in marines. Basically all the core infantry options pail into insignificance when put alongside terminators for damage output/survive-ability per point. I don't see how the other marines will get a look in until the terminators are restricted somehow. Personally for fluff and game reasons i would stop them being transported in a thunderhawk, but i can't see that gaining any traction.

As a side note, we have been playing Land Raiders here in friendlies at DC2 with FF5+ for 6 or 7 games. It started with a marine player who wanted to use his collection, but I've also given it a go in Black Legion. I'm not suggesting this is likely to get anywhere in Net EA, nor that it is entirely balanced (spamming them could be horrible) but the fact that they didn't see completely out of wack even at their current price says something imho. In fact the "feel" of the unit actually was the main take-away. For once the marines had an armoured/AT capable rock which felt fun to use (like a mini reaver) and fits the fluff. Basically what I'm saying is maybe the cost of the LR is not the issue - its the stats don't feel right?

But in the meantime, sort the proposed changes out and then move onto buffing dreadnoughts and assault marines yeah....? :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:04 pm 
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spontaneously I like the dc2 land raider. Not more shooting, but a little more ff/cc and much more durability. Would really make that 1/2 activation more in cost vs predators worth the points.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed local and global Space Marine changes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Played 3 games at Adepticon with T-hawks moved to 1/3 and Whirlwinds down to 275 points. In practice, this meant that I swapped the second warhound in my list for a unit of whirlwinds. This was the list I took:

450 - 6 Tacticals, 1 Hunter, Rhinos, Supreme Commander ***BTS***
400 - 4 Terminators, Chaplain
400 - 4 Terminators, Chaplain
150 - 4 Scouts, Rhinos
225 - 3 Land Speeder Tornado, 2 Land Speeder Typhoon
250 - 5 Land Speeders, Chaplain
275 - 4 Whirlwinds
200 - Thunderhawk
200 - Thunderhawk
275 - Warhound
175 - 2 Thunderbolts

Didn't do batreps, but general impressions:

Games 1 vs Tau (also testing changes to the Manta): Tau deployed far enough back to prevent barrage fire t1, and generally played very defensively at the start of the game. Whirlwinds didn't do a whole lot (they only killed a couple of tetras all game) and were eventually targeted and killed by a couple of Tau shooting activations. Would have done better with a second warhound.

Game 2 vs Imperial Guard: Traded indirect fire back and forth with the Imp Guard artillery. Whirlwinds took a lot of fire and made a lot of saves. I think they only acted as a fire magnet and placed blast markers. Game went heavily in my favor; difference between whirlwinds and warhound #2 probably negligible.

Game 3 vs Ghaz Orks: This game started off downhill for the orks, as 2 early air assaults wiped out 700 points from their flanks. Whirlwinds finally decided to help though, stripping 5 shields from the gargant (ultimately inconsequential), and hitting a big fortress mob for a total of ~8-9 infantry deaths and a crit on the battlefortress. This time they were probably better than another warhound.


Overall impressions; changes still seem fine. I definitely won't be taking whirlwinds every game, but I might try to slot them in occasionally at the reduced price. None of my opponents seemed particularly concerned about them. I did miss having the second warhound, but starting every list with 2 of them was pretty much a no-brainer, so having to make a choice between 2 titans and 2 thunderhawks is probably a good thing.


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