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Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0

 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:36 pm 
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So thought a little more. What about putting the Heavy Tactical Infantry (back) in as a core option.
Are the Mechanised Terminators common enough in the theme to be a Core Formation?

Really do like the more sensible Land Raider Helios with the Hyperios AA Launcher.
Having upgrade options for Land Raider Achilles and Redeemer, (perhaps even the Terminus?)
on the various places Land Raiders could be deployed would also be cool.

On keeping two variants for the Tacticals I would observe that you have introduced two variants for Scouts!


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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:15 am 
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Yeah the Achilles is a great varient but the lore has them pretty exclusive to the imperial fists.

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Obviously a lot of you view the Scions of Iron as an Armour focused list. I still haven’t heard exactly which change you feel made the list lose its armour focus? No matter which version of the list you look at, they will field a lot more tanks than any other Space Marine chapter. Is it the core/support split, that forces you to field infantry, or is it the reduced size of the tank units?

I have a problem with the large Predator formations. Air insertion of Predator Annihilator formations (4 and a hunter) using a Landing Craft is already a very powerful option in the Codex Astartes list, used to great effect by many successful marine players. SoI can insert 6 Predators using Thunderhawk Transporters, which eliminates the risk of losing the formation to a lucky crit. This combination is over powered and enables very nasty list builds. 6 Predators without air insertion would be fine. In my opinion the rest of the list could use a boost, but as long as this option is in the list it’s very hard to motivate since that would make the already super powerful builds with air inserted Predators even better. The larger Land Raider formation is not an issue since it can’t be air inserted, and it will also be very expensive.

dave wrote:
The scale of changes you're looking to introduce is putting this in the Ship of Theseus territory

This is a valid point and maybe I went a bit too far with some of my suggested changes. I will look at reverting some of the changes that might have been pointless. To me the most important changes to the army are: core/support split, reduced Predators size, move aircrafts to 1/3 section, slight points reduction on the Tactical formations, Terminators deploy in Land Raider Crusaders.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
Seeing an even more full range of Land Raider variants available would also be fun.

I don’t see which Land Raider varients to add to the list, without introducing new varients which has not yet been given stats in epic. The Land Raider Achilles and Ares would fit the list but are unique to other chapters, and the Redeemer I think should be reserved for the Salamanders. The Salamanders and SoI have a lot of similarities and introducing tanks with flamer weapons in the SoI list would in my mind take the chapters even closer.

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:20 pm 
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I have updated the original post with a new version of the list. I have tried to accomplish similar results as in my original proposal but with a lot less changes, and also less downplay of the pure tank formations. Some of the less popular changes are still in there, like smaller Predator formations, but I think they are necessary for list balance.

For those of you who do not want to scroll back to the original post, here is the link to the updated list:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/93jidm9fgipcxx1/Scions_of_Iron_2.1.html?dl=1

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:39 am 
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Looking good!

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:23 am 
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Quote:
In my mind Scions of Iron is an army that is rarely used (based on battle reports, discussions, etc. on Taccom)

Just because it doesn't crop up on Taccomd often, doesn't mean it's rarely used. Go have a scroll through PFEs blog and you'll see it is played by his group regularly. And it's probably the third most played space marine army in tournaments here behind Codex and Imperial Fists.
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Obviously a lot of you view the Scions of Iron as an Armour focused list.

Yes, that is correct. Would you like me to quote the list designer again? Hena (thanks Dave) made the Chapter up! How can his view be wrong?
Quote:
I still haven’t heard exactly which change you feel made the list lose its armour focus?

By losing, reducing or hamstringing all its tank formations. The Land Raider is the Space Marine Main Battle Tank. You've reduced the size of the formation to only four and suggest a list structure that means you have to take infantry to get them (either in an infantry formation or as a support formation). I love my 6 strong Land Raider formation...with no infantry...ably supported by really, really cool bike with land speeder formations and predators.

You have seriously just messed with or removed all the armour or cool fluffy units from the army list.

Seriously, if you want a heavy mechanised list - please come up with a new name and do it. Use your imagination like Hena did and come up with a new chapters back story. I thoroughly encourage you to.

But again, please don't mess with an already approved list, which is pretty balance and fine how it is.

I do apologies if you think my comments are 'harsh'. I don't mean them to be. I just can't get my head around why you want to completely change the theme of a perfectly good ARMOUR list?

Regards

Harry


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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:47 am 
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Hena wrote:
The basis of Scions of Iron is Marine Armour. List is designed to allow full advantage of the armoured vehicles while cutting down on the options for infantry and light vehicle formations.

I think some of the debate is because of my choice of words. To me mechanized infantry/combined arms still means a lot of focus on Marine Armour. I would argue that the list is still “designed to allow full advantage of the armoured vehicles while cutting down on the options for infantry and light vehicle formations”. In my original proposal I downplayed the pure tank formation but after hearing the community feedback most of them are back to their approved version.

Having a list structure is something that I think most chapters should have. At the moment you can build an army of only Scouts with Land Speeders, which feels more like Ravenguard, or only Bikes etc. I choose the Tactical formations and Terminators as core for the Scions of Iron.

I have reviewed the battle reports posted in the past featuring the Scions of Iron. The only change I have proposed that invalidates any of those armies, including the armies in the two battle reports you posted @Gunslinger9, is the change to the Terminator formation. None of the armies posted on Taccom (hard to review the ones not posted) are built without enough Tacticals or Heavy Tacticals to cover what is now support choices.

Gunslinger9 wrote:
You've reduced the size of the formation to only four and suggest a list structure that means you have to take infantry to get them (either in an infantry formation or as a support formation).

Gunslinger9 wrote:
By losing, reducing or hamstringing all its tank formations.

If you look at the 2.1 proposal most of those are back in the list, apart from the large Predator formation. Reason for that explained in my previous post.

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Look, all I'm asking is if you want to develop a heavy mechanised list or combined arms or whatever else, go and do it. Have fun. I really, genuinely want you to have fun. Just start a new list, call it something different and leave the Scions of Iron list alone.

Then those of us who enjoy the Scions of Iron list can keep our tanks and have fun with our toys as well.

You get your list, and we can keep playing the list we've been collecting miniatures for and enjoying for 10 years. Everyone wins.

I really cannot see how that is being unreasonable.

Regards

Harry


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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Like Argol have pointed out earlier. If the list is good as it is with just a few minor points adjustments being the only thing that is viewed as reasonble, why does the list even need a new Sub-AC?
Smaller changes like that could be handled by the SM-AC instead. I do understand both "sides" of this discussion but i think the fault lies in the initial stage where it could have been clearer that the approved lists should not be tinkered with (if that is the majority view on the matter) and that a new AC should only do minor changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:42 pm 
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I am not near a computer right now, currently away with work

Just dropping in to say that I back my choice of subAC and support him in his vision to develop the list

That being said, my preferred option is to freeze development on it and start a new SoI list in its place as is being done with latd redux, I think that keeps the most number of people happy and lets Argol tinker and work his vision up, I will write more later

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Gunslinger9 wrote:
Just start a new list, call it something different and leave the Scions of Iron list alone.

OK Harry, my final attempt to convince you that you are making this a much bigger problem than it really is. The changes I have proposed forces you to bring some infantry along, but you still have plenty of tank formations available. The size reduction to the Predators was proposed from a balance perspective. I have not seen one Scions of Iron list on this forum that would be illegal because of the core/support restrictions, but maybe you have a favorite build that would suffer… Please tell me what kind of list you want to field that would be illegal with my proposed changes, so that I get a better view of how other people play Scions of Iron.

And since we are quoting Henas design document, Ill end with a quote from the Chapter Organization:

Hena wrote:
The 6th and 7th companies are armour support companies. These consists only of armoured units and have no infantry of any kind. It's very rare that a support company would fight without any presence of a single battle company.

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:09 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
That being said, my preferred option is to freeze development on it and start a new SoI list in its place as is being done with latd redux, I think that keeps the most number of people happy and lets Argol tinker and work his vision up, I will write more later


+1 to the above..

The below link should just show the all battle reports that have Scions of Iron in them…Just click the next page link to take you to the next report at bottom of page....

http://pfe100.blogspot.com.au/search?q=Scions+of+Iron

Our main player of Scions of Iron just read the intro to the changes and started to use colorfully language …. Mainly due to fact, he likes the 8 strong land raiders and 6 strong predators…. As you go through the reports, you will see the Vindicators turn up six strong too…The 8 strong land raiders, mainly do turn up in large point games…since they are not cheap…

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 Post subject: Re: Scions of Iron - play test version 2.0
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:13 am 
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Argol

Sure, here's a list I really enjoy playing:

PREDATOR [550]
3 Predators, Supreme Commander in Prometheus, 2 Predator Annihilator, Hunter

LAND RAIDER [475]
6 Land Raider

LAND RAIDER [475]
6 Land Raider

HELIOS [425]
4 Land Raider Helios

HEAVY TACTICAL [400]
4 Tactical units, 2 Land Raider, Hunter

BIKE [330]
4 Bike Unit, 2 Land Speeder Typhoon, Land Speeder

BIKE [330]
4 Bike Unit, 2 Land Speeder Typhoon, Land Speeder

Regards

Harry


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