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For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x

 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:20 pm 
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I think it can be done largely within the standard rules, with a few minor tweaks:


1) Add a "High Altitude Valkyrie" flyer, with a special rule that allows it to drop troops with jump packs without landing.

2) Make normal Valkyries a seperate formation with the war engine transport rules.


This avoids the need to have the same units switching between flyer and skimmer, and all the problems that incurs ("if elysians can, why can't XXXX?"). We can add some guff about the High Altitude Valkyries being specially modified or something to fly higher and faster.

This'll lead to some really cool ingame possibilities: Troops drop in (from VISIBLE planes!), then attack. Under a counter-attack, they call for a rescue and a squad of hugheys....I mean Valkyries... comes to extract them.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:39 pm 
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actually, i dont think the high altitude thing should be a valkyrie. there is an imperial heavy transport aircraft mentioned in Double Eagle called an Onero which would do the job quite nicely (a FW marauder model would suffice in a pinch)

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:37 pm 
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And the Marauder is mentioned as being drop-capable in "The Guns of Tanith." High-Altitude Valkyries don't make a ton of sense simply because the Valkyrie platform is designed as a Skimmer. Refitting it for high-altitude operation doesn't change the fact that it's a VTOL craft. (Quick check of Imperial Armour shows Valks have an operational ceiling of 13,000 meters, while Marauders are capable of flying up to 41,000 meters.)


I'm not a huge fan of the "Flyer" rule, and the potential headaches that can arise from a mixed-type vehicle like that. Regular Valkyries should definitely be capable of staying on-station to provide support (or being assigned organically to a formation as transport vehicles) Giving them (free?) Planetfall would allow for them to drop in where they're needed, and then operate with their company. It's the Sky Talons that currently aren't very good, as they provide very limited increased capability for the Tauros, and Sentinels rarely justify the cost when you could just buy more Sentinels.

My proposal would be to give regular Valkyries Planetfall, Shift the Valyrie SkyTalon to a War Engine Transport, and allow the individual infantry to Planetfall as well with their Grav Chutes. This way each delivery method has its own strengths and weaknesses, and none of them involve getting obliterated by a high SR army after teleporting.


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:21 am 
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Wow, slip out for a couple of days and someone kicks down the barn door and let's out all the animals.

So, let's take a deep breath and slow down.

1. Signal: You should take a little more time to read Ginger's post. There is a lot of wisdom in it based on a fair bit of play testing. That is how the list was and will be designed to operate.

2. We're not doing the fly in thing. There's no reason to.

And now the tough part.

Ben, I get that you don't like how I've designed the list. Despite several years of enjoyment by myself and others, you just don't like how it works. I get it. You don't like it when people don't agree with you. I get that as well. When you decide to turn your opinion (which is all it is) to personal attacks then it's time to say enough.

No, I'm not quitting, I'm asking you to leave. Your presence isn't appreciated here anymore.

This is a hobby. Hobby's are supposed to be fun. You would prefer that it get personal. Your choice, but the knife cuts both ways.

I know, I'm losing out on all the cool stuff you make. I'll get over it.

You are an immensely talented individual and capable of so much. One of the things you need to learn is how to work with others. You don't have that down yet. Other perspectives are not wrong because they aren't yours. Epic is a very small pond. It is not life or death. I would hope that you would keep that in mind in your interactions with others going forward. You are capable of so much.

In the next couple of days, I shall endeavor to address Signal's points as well as others. We are not remaking the list.

I am sorry it has come to this.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:45 am 
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Woah, woah, woah.

We don't need another blowout like Mosc had.

Honda - Try as I might, I can't find any post in which E&C made an actual personal attack in the last several pages. Your thread, your rules, but this community is fragmented enough without these sorts of things. I really don't want Elysians to turn into another case of dueling lists like 'nids.

E&C - While you made no personal attacks that I can see, there were several posts where you walked a fine line, questioning the lists overall direction, archetecture, and/or duration of development. If you really feel a list has serious flaws, and you really think the AC doesn't or won't see them, don't sit on the sidelines repeating yourself. Get active in the list development and show the problems. Maybe there are glaring flaws that not everyone sees. Maybe you see flaws where there are none. You can't prove either without getting minis out.

As a community we can't afford to have rows; we're not large enough and this sort of thing makes people less eager to join or stay.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:48 am 
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Signal,
I have just been re-reading the latest list and comparing it with yours, and one thought occured to me - have you tried parachuting 2x Drop Sentinel squadrons alongside each upgraded Drop company, and doing this twice? This gives a significant punch (up to 12x 5+MW dice assaultiong and supporting; and is 6x teleporting activations that can be "commanded" as two assault activations if needed. Yes it is 1300 points, but then you have 1700 point to make up another 6-7 formations :)

Honda,
I have not been following the list much recently, but wondered whether you had deliberately included transport with the Storm Troopers for some reason. The point is that this effectively robs them of "teleport" as their transport cannot do this.

Also, have yoyu totally rejected the notion of allowing the Elysians to start with up to 2x air-formations on CAP?


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:55 am 
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Honda_reloaded wrote:
Garrison vs. Vannaheim CAP: As it stands, I don't feel the army should have both of these rules. There is clear demonstation in IA8 of garrison being used. Although the V-CAP is an interesting idea, it seems to me that a logical outcome would be to take the four strong Lightning formation and always start it on CAP. That's not what I'd like to see. So at this point, I am currently leaning to leaving garrison at the expense of V-CAP.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:50 am 
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Honda, I hear ya, and as requested by you, I'm gone from this public forum. I might come back to some other areas in the forum in a while, but if not, Cheers everyone.



Whilst i have in general avoided being personal in this thread so far, since I'm now leaving please allow me this one personal response: Honda, you've been "hogging" the Elysian list name for quite a while.

You don't have a balanced elysian list to date, as the list has large deficiencies versus some list types and will actually easily dominate other list types, let alone my concerns about lack of tactical complexity (teleport lists play pretty much the same every game you play). These balance problems are obvious.

In addition there are some obvious internal balance issues with units being greatly over or undercosted.

After six years in charge, please, consider giving someone else a go at the wheel, for the good of the community/list. That's something I did a number of times in my time developing lists, rather than hold on to projects that I did not have the time or capability to finish in a reasonable length of time.

A whole bunch of great alternate ideas have been suggested here over past few pages by a variety of people, try letting one of them play for a while.

-E&C

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:To get back to Honda's excellent approach


The Honda who failed to complete the Tau list, and has been doing the same with the Elysian list since 2005?

I'm not convinced his approach works all that well.


This attitude is the issue.

I will revisit point both before and post the red post later.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Argh....kindergarten bitching....

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Signal,
I have just been re-reading the latest list and comparing it with yours, and one thought occured to me - have you tried parachuting 2x Drop Sentinel squadrons alongside each upgraded Drop company, and doing this twice? This gives a significant punch (up to 12x 5+MW dice assaultiong and supporting; and is 6x teleporting activations that can be "commanded" as two assault activations if needed. Yes it is 1300 points, but then you have 1700 point to make up another 6-7 formations :)

Allow me to posit a scenarios for you, to show the difficulty I'm having with this :)

2x Drop Sentinels and a Drop Company (with Infantry added) parachute in next to a Devastator and Tactical formation (equal points cost). This could happen in two separate locations, but we're just going to look at the one for right now (and assume that the SM player retains to replicate it on the other side.) The Drop Company is going to receive at least 1 blast marker for teleporting in, meaning that they're already somewhat suppressed (and have difficulty activating), but it's about to get worse because the Space Marine player wins the Strategy Roll.

1) Devastators activate with a sustained fire on the Drop Company. 8 Missile Launcher shots means 4 dead Elysians, bringing them to a total of 6 blast markers on 4 infantry. Formation is broken. Elysian player is now forced to try assaulting with the Sentinels, who will do an average of a single hit/kill in the initial round against the Tacticals (who are screening the Devastators) and the return fire kills off 3 of the Sentinels on average. There is now 1 sentinel and 5 Tactical Marines in the assault, and supporting fire kills 1 more Tac and wipes out the Sentinels.

or:

2) Marines conduct an assault with their Tactical Squad against the Elysians. Opening strike does two casualties to Elysians, one to the Marines. Supporting fire from the Devastators and Sentinels does about 2 more casualties each (assuming all 3 of the squads are in supporting fire range, of course.) Resolution roll is Elysians: +5 (3 kills, and we're assuming the Commissar survives, and outnumber) vs Marines: +6 (4 kills, no blast markers, opponent has more blast markers) It's close, but the odds are still against the Guard player. (and a broken drop company is far weaker than a broken Tac formation, due to ATSKNF)

The assault situation is probably best for the Guard player, because he at least has a chance to do some damage as he's wiped out. The real problem, again, is after those drop troops have landed they're some of the worst foot troops in the game. Anyone who they attempt to go after will inevitably sit out of their threat range and cut them to pieces.

Quote:
1. Signal: You should take a little more time to read Ginger's post. There is a lot of wisdom in it based on a fair bit of play testing. That is how the list was and will be designed to operate.

I hear what he (and you) are saying, but I don't really see how it works out on a table against a competent opponent. Does anyone have some battle reports showing a well-executed Elysian game, specifically against an enemy that is able to exploit their weaknesses?


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Signal wrote:

I hear what he (and you) are saying, but I don't really see how it works out on a table against a competent opponent. Does anyone have some battle reports showing a well-executed Elysian game, specifically against an enemy that is able to exploit their weaknesses?


I've played a couple of games against a competent Elysian player, both times with Ulthwe (SR5), one 3000pts, one 4000pts (so I could field a Warlock for fun). The 3000pt list was what I pretty much always take (2x Guardians w/ Wraithguard, one with Wraithlords, Storm Serpent, 2x Falcons, 2x Rangers, other bits and pieces). The second list was the same with a Warlock and an extra Night Spinner fm. Board had quite a lot of terrain and cover. Both times he quit in the second turn.

First game, I had 2 Ranger fms spread out, screening my Falcons, storm serpent, spinners, SC Guardians. He teleported in 2 amped up drop co.s (beautifully painted and converted too) and 1 drop sentinel fm on one flank with the most cover, with another drop sentinel on the opposite flank. Took a bunch of BMs and lost strategy. I advanced with my storm serpent, retained with my BTS guardian fm and took out 4/5ths of his BTS for one wraithlord. Triple retained, moving my SC guardians away from his other drop co. Not much else of note happened in the rest of the game - he shot up some falcons with his vultures, I wiped out his other drop co. with my other guardian fm out of the storm serpent, he ended up with few effective unbroken fms by the middle of the 2nd turn.

Second game he was more cautious, but again, BMs and low SR hamstrung him. It also didn't help that to get stuff into cover he intermingled 2 fms in the centre, so I doubled my Warlock, broke his storm trooper co. and supported an Avatar FF assault on a drop co. and sentinel fm, which wiped them out. It was pretty much the same story. He couldn't drop in my face as BMs and low SR meant that he'd always lose at least one drop co. and if he dropped out of sight behind some cover, he ended up so far out of position that he couldn't do anything useful. Especially against a scout castle with some fast alpha strike fms.

I played a couple of Vassal games with Elysians just for fun and got pasted, plus that was before the ML sentinels got dropped as a result of a FW change of heart. Don't remember much other than getting rings run around my drop co.s. It was certainly one of the less enjoyable lists to play (and I've played most of them, if only on Vassal).


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Sounds painful.

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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:16 pm 
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The games I played with Ulthwe vs. Elysians were two of the few games where I've wanted to lose assaults/ fail activations, just to give my opponent a bit of a boost, it was that bad.

The ones I played with Elysians weren't terrible, they were kind of fun in the vein of "how bad can it be? Oh, that bad". However fun it might be occasionally, getting your arse kicked isn't a recipe for a replay :)


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 Post subject: Re: For Elysia! The Elysian Drop Troop Regiment v3.x
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:38 pm 
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That sounds really bad.
How about: Strategy Rating 3 and dropping (haha) the price of the Drop Companies so at least you could have more of them for assaults?

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