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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:32 am 
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Just read up on the crassus, thx for the 35 men, can field that extra stand, how bout having the option, @ cost, to swop out the Sponsons, to flamers, autocanons, Las etc?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Okay, so I have had a radical change of thought as to how the companies are structured.
Following up on ideas put forward in this thread, I have made companies up of interchangeable platoons, rather than a set formation that is added to with upgrades that are rarely taken.
So for example, the Heavy Mechanised infantry company is made up of a commander, one infantry platoon (six stands and a crassus), and one to three other platoons, such as other infantry platoons, heavy weapons platoons, ogryn platoons, hellhound platoons etc etc. Taking this approach of building upgrades into the companies rather than adding to quite large companies might mean that upgrades are actually used. In my experience upgrades are usually something I take if I have a few points left over and I've filled up my number of support slots I can use, which is a shame. Variety is the spice of life after all.

So what this means is that this Imperial Guard army retains the fairly large and unwieldy formation structure, but has a bit more variety possible within the company. At the price of unlocking some unusual company combo's, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just different.

junkstar wrote:
how bout having the option, @ cost, to swop out the Sponsons, to flamers, autocanons, Las etc?

I've added these options in as crassus sponson weapons. I haven't point costed them yet, but the option is there for people at least.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
In a "real life" situation I'd be tempted to allocate out the AA assets to the core formations.
It is possible to allocate a Hydra but this is possibly problematic in game terms. A single
armoured vehicle (AV) in an otherwise war-engine formation can be independently targeted
by AT fire. I realise that it can also hide behind the war-engines and therefore not be seen
which might be useful for keeping it alive. And also it takes fire away from the heavy vehicles
which might be good, . . . . ? Hiding Hydras behind Macharius tanks would look a little odd,
as in gamey, to me.

I've shelved the hydra option for now. It might come back in, but I wanted to try the list without it, relying on the Sky-Killer for AA for now.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
Keeping the heavier AA assets, Praetor Sky-Killers, more centralised seems reasonable. But I was wondering about allowing them to be attached to a regular company. They would be
war-engines too and avoid the above game issues. Might be a bit overpowering, given their
capabilities and spreading them around? Was thinking +125 points - same as a Macharius Omega.
At that price point there would be a 50 points surcharge for two and you would lose an activation.
Their 60 cm range and 10 cm coherency (within a platoon of two) means they have a pretty
large AA umbrella anyway, along with a fair resilence, so I don't see it as essential.

AA is a bit of a continuing problem with this list for me. I want the Praetor to be the go-to option, so have removed the hydra for now. I've allowed the Sky killer as a possible part of the new companies as you have said above, so they are fairly expensive, and a little slow, so aren't really an auto include. Just another option to weigh up.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
Hoping the Storm Troopers are keeping the option of Valkyries along with the Centaur alternative.

Yep they have the option of Crassus, Valkyrie or Centaur now.
jimmyzimms wrote:
That certainty becomes one zippy and huge ST formation with those centaurs.

It isn't quite as big as the 8 stand 8 centaur Krieg version, but yes it is a fast and pretty big formation. Good for crossfires and supporting engagements with plenty of firefight attacks.

So version 0.7 has been added here. I can't add it to the first post for some reason, but will keep trying. Feedback most welcome. :)


Attachments:
IG_heavy_mech_0.7.pdf [72.28 KiB]
Downloaded 58 times

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:05 am 
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Thanks for the list, its starting to look very DKoK in appearance; the removal of the hydras were based on what reason as personally 50 compared to 125 for AA is a no brainer for me

Costing oddidity 2 sky killers cost 200 yet a single is 125 as a coy add on?

The Heavy tank coy is 2 tanks? command plus a normal Macharius? with the option for 3 upgrades? so a normal Macharius costs 75 so the command costs 175 points?

Also just noticed no sniper upgrade?

Hellhounds are 100 points for 3 normally, got them costed @ 50 each? or 50 for each squad of 3?

Normally the vanquisher is the free upgrade in a tank pl/coy

Under the crassus OR is missing from the sponson loadouts - would be nice to have them all

Theres a lot of 'rare models' that keep creeping into this list, trying to keep up with the changes is hard enough, we, rather you have gone from a list we have tested to a complete new re-org, will there be any more drastic vehicle changes or resets?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:03 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback junkstar. Hopefully none of the changes that I've made disrupt your group too much.

Let me know if you've violently opposed to anything that I've done, and I can have a look at it.

For now though I'd really like to keep it as it is and get a few games in. I'm pretty keen to see what changes the new company structure has now, as I think there are some powerful combos that can be tried out in there now, by mixing things like ogryns and hellhounds into base companies without having to shell out too much for upgrades, meaning that the activation count can stay relatively high.

For this reason I've temporarily shelved the hydra option, to try and offset the bonus of the flexible company structure.
But by all means continue to take them as a 50pt upgrade for your companies if you like, and let me know how they go.
junkstar wrote:
Costing oddidity 2 sky killers cost 200 yet a single is 125 as a coy add on?

Yep, that's deliberate. The single option is less rigid than the formation, so costs a little more.


junkstar wrote:
The Heavy tank coy is 2 tanks? command plus a normal Macharius? with the option for 3 upgrades? so a normal Macharius costs 75 so the command costs 175 points?

I have taken these prices straight from the Krieg list. The formation of three costs 325, with a forth costing 75. So when I broke this down into it's individual unit costs, that's what I came up with. It seems at face value to be a little expensive, but I'm keen to give it a go as is and see if the points need tweaking.

junkstar wrote:
Also just noticed no sniper upgrade?

Yeah, I've left these out of this list to avoid it getting too bulky.

junkstar wrote:
Hellhounds are 100 points for 3 normally, got them costed @ 50 each? or 50 for each squad of 3?

Oops this is a mistake. I was mucking around with making hellhounds a 1-3 option. But I abandoned that idea as I have added in the variable company structure. It should be 3 for 100 as you said.

junkstar wrote:
Under the crassus OR is missing from the sponson loadouts - would be nice to have them all

I've said in the comments for the crassus that you buy one set of sponsons, so I thought that covered it. I can add in the OR's easily enough if it makes it clearer for people.

junkstar wrote:
Theres a lot of 'rare models' that keep creeping into this list, trying to keep up with the changes is hard enough, we, rather you have gone from a list we have tested to a complete new re-org, will there be any more drastic vehicle changes or resets?

I'm personally pretty happy with it at the moment, but I will see how this variable company structure plays out. I'm hoping that there won't be any more changes, only points tweaks.

Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:45 am 
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So what has to happen to get this list to developmental?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Mard, I guess the real question is if he actually wants this to be a tourney based list in the first place. For instance I've got a few lists I really don't have any desire to be under the aegis of the NetEA charter for various reasons (nothing against it, just they don't really fit with what I want to do with them). However to answer the question it would require the Guard AC (Rug) to accept it into NetEA.

Matty, I'm really digging your new approach to this list structure. I think you're doing great with this approach-let's see how it works out. Especially glad that you dropped the hydras as they don't fit the theme well. I'm with you regarding the "rare" models as this being a fan list built around such rarities it's very appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:05 am 
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Cheers for the response Jimmy


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:50 am 
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Cheers chaps.
I'm not at all up to speed on what is involved in the approval process.
This has started out as a list made by a fan, and just kept going based on playing some games and suggestions from others who play it.
It has a few things in it now that will require a fair bit of play testing. To balance it now it might lose all its character :D

I'm not sure it's something Rug would be open to taking further to be honest! But I'll shoot him a PM and see what he says.

Edit. It seems sending Rug a pm isn't as easy as I imagined. His account must have been deleted.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:28 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Thanks for the feedback junkstar. Hopefully none of the changes that I've made disrupt your group too much.

Let me know if you've violently opposed to anything that I've done, and I can have a look at it.

For now though I'd really like to keep it as it is and get a few games in. I'm pretty keen to see what changes the new company structure has now, as I think there are some powerful combos that can be tried out in there now, by mixing things like ogryns and hellhounds into base companies without having to shell out too much for upgrades, meaning that the activation count can stay relatively high.

For this reason I've temporarily shelved the hydra option, to try and offset the bonus of the flexible company structure.
But by all means continue to take them as a 50pt upgrade for your companies if you like, and let me know how they go.
junkstar wrote:
Costing oddidity 2 sky killers cost 200 yet a single is 125 as a coy add on?

Yep, that's deliberate. The single option is less rigid than the formation, so costs a little more.


junkstar wrote:
The Heavy tank coy is 2 tanks? command plus a normal Macharius? with the option for 3 upgrades? so a normal Macharius costs 75 so the command costs 175 points?

I have taken these prices straight from the Krieg list. The formation of three costs 325, with a forth costing 75. So when I broke this down into it's individual unit costs, that's what I came up with. It seems at face value to be a little expensive, but I'm keen to give it a go as is and see if the points need tweaking.

junkstar wrote:
Also just noticed no sniper upgrade?

Yeah, I've left these out of this list to avoid it getting too bulky.

junkstar wrote:
Hellhounds are 100 points for 3 normally, got them costed @ 50 each? or 50 for each squad of 3?

Oops this is a mistake. I was mucking around with making hellhounds a 1-3 option. But I abandoned that idea as I have added in the variable company structure. It should be 3 for 100 as you said.

junkstar wrote:
Under the crassus OR is missing from the sponson loadouts - would be nice to have them all

I've said in the comments for the crassus that you buy one set of sponsons, so I thought that covered it. I can add in the OR's easily enough if it makes it clearer for people.

junkstar wrote:
Theres a lot of 'rare models' that keep creeping into this list, trying to keep up with the changes is hard enough, we, rather you have gone from a list we have tested to a complete new re-org, will there be any more drastic vehicle changes or resets?

I'm personally pretty happy with it at the moment, but I will see how this variable company structure plays out. I'm hoping that there won't be any more changes, only points tweaks.

Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated.


I'm liking it more tbh, should be more 'heavy' orientated (no pun) - just having painted them then finding more additions/deletions can be infuriating especially if you dont have the models. That aside once I get the Valdors done & the Salamanders should be good to go.

Instead of bombards or hellhounds being an add on have you considered a single dominus? or perhaps a flamer only gorgon as a company add on? Might fit the theme of heavy better?

Keep up the great work


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:39 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Cheers chaps.
I'm not at all up to speed on what is involved in the approval process.

If you're really bored give a read to the NetEA CRaP thread/doc to get the overview on how it all sorts together. Thrilling I'm sure ;)
http://taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewforum.php?f=69

Matty_C wrote:
I'm not sure it's something Rug would be open to taking further to be honest! But I'll shoot him a PM and see what he says.

Edit. It seems sending Rug a pm isn't as easy as I imagined. His account must have been deleted.

He must have been another of these people who got their accounts nuked. He's not been super active recently around these parts so I don't think anyone notice. Hrmmm something to discuss in AC-land. thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:39 pm 
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Yep. I messaged CyberShadow and he confirmed his account had been deleted.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:16 pm 
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Hey Matty C
Good looking list. I agree with some of the posts that the sallys were probably a better fit with this thematically. As in light armour supporting heavy armour.

Also i think the super heavy arty may be a bit op. Current stats make it the cheapest and most effective arty formation.

A single praetor is 1bp and 1 dc shy of an eldar void spinner Plus the praetor has longer range and better armour.

I think it might be prudent to bump the stats to make them single unit formations and increase the cost per unit. Or make them armoured manticores with slow fire etc.

Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:24 pm 
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Hi Matty. Ive managed to get this downloaded now. Really interesting to see how that platoon structure affects list selection... I also like the smaller stormtrooper formation as well as the option to use centaurs.

Its the guard list as i imagine them - lots of options but maintaining the rigid command structure. Really hope i can try this list out sometime, but atm i generally only get to play at epicuk tournies.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:31 pm 
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JimXII wrote:
Hey Matty C
Good looking list. I agree with some of the posts that the sallys were probably a better fit with this thematically. As in light armour supporting heavy armour.

Thanks Jim. I'm liking the feel of them for this army too.
JimXII wrote:
Also i think the super heavy arty may be a bit op. Current stats make it the cheapest and most effective arty formation.

A single praetor is 1bp and 1 dc shy of an eldar void spinner Plus the praetor has longer range and better armour.

I think it might be prudent to bump the stats to make them single unit formations and increase the cost per unit. Or make them armoured manticores with slow fire etc.

Cheers
Jim

Yeah the praetor has been a tough one for me to try and get right.
It is a super powerful piece of kit in the background, and the model stats are what they are (so to speak).
The weapon isn't as good as a reaver's 3BP launcher, but out ranges it and has disrupt. It's available in formations of three, compounding its power.
I based the weapon stats on the manticore, as it is basically the same in the background. I removed slow firing as it has more missiles, and made the formation of three basically the same as two formations of three manticores. 6BP a turn, with disrupt. The manticores have worse armour, but have more tactical flexibility as they are two formations. They don't suffer criticals, but as formations of three are easy to suppress.
Up until recently they had internal balance too. Companies were expensive, as we're formations of three praetors, so it was difficult to spam them and have a list that could take on all comers.
Now that I've made the formation a 2-3 option, and built cheaper upgrades into the company structure, I suspect it is easier to spam them.
I'm holding off on changing them at the moment, but believe me when I say that they are on my "I'm watching you" list.
Formation size is an option, as is adding in slow fire and also reviewing points costs. I actually don't mind locking them in as a formation of three; they are too expensive to spam, and are usually the BTS, and are very scary, so the enemy gives them plenty of attention.

Blip wrote:
Hi Matty. Ive managed to get this downloaded now. Really interesting to see how that platoon structure affects list selection... I also like the smaller stormtrooper formation as well as the option to use centaurs.

Its the guard list as i imagine them - lots of options but maintaining the rigid command structure. Really hope i can try this list out sometime, but atm i generally only get to play at epicuk tournies.


Cheers blip. Thanks for the feedback too. I'll try and get the PDF up in the first post. I suspect there is a limit to the number of files you can attach in one post, so I'll delete the old ones.

Sounds like you better get the EpocUK guys to adopt this list ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:26 pm 
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I totally agree with Blip, point for point.

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