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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:43 pm 
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Hi scarik
Thanks very much for the quality feedback.
I'm in transit at the moment but will post a more detailed reply soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:54 am 
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Some comments on the feedback:
scarik wrote:
I played against this list last Tuesday with my Minervan superheavy list.

3 companies of SHTs (2 Stormhammers, 1 Stormblade)
3 Shadowswords
2 units of Salamanders with commanders
2 units T-bolts

The rest of my points were in hydras and salamander command vehicles for the companies.

Strong anti-2DC list. He did well to last 4 turns ;)

scarik wrote:
My impression of the list is that it is very similar to the Steel Legion and looking over the documents bears that out. This is a SL list with all mechanized units with the option of WE transports and the Macharius company instead of a Baneblades.

I assumed that the steel legion list was an archetype for mechanised lists in the Imperial Guard, so effectively modified it how you said to make a version that emphasises the 2DC superheavies. The pro's of doing this is that it probably isn't too unbalanced, and that people with existing steel legion armies can use it without too much fuss.

The con's are that it has the similarities with the steel legion list, and to be honest using 2DC transports seems to take a lot of finesse.

scarik wrote:
The strength of the 2DC tanks meant nothing to my 3DC bruisers. Macharius vs Stormhammer is not a good match for the little guys.

Despite hot dice on his Shadowsword (it killed 3 of my superheavies and I failed to vape it with my own TK guns twice) the shooting of this list was anemic. It didn;t have any guns that could scare me in direct fire and the 4BP artillery didn't accomplish much either. It shot my SC formation of Stormhammers every turn and all it did was kill a Salamander commander. 6BP wouldn't have helped much with that strategy given that my SC had 3 leaders until he killed the Salamander.

It is a tough match up for this list. Your rock to his scissors perhaps. The Praetors are pretty good at counter artillery and anti-infantry, but will struggle against all your armour. I love taking on Steel legion artillery with them for example, but they barely scratch the paint of my mates squat superheavies.

scarik wrote:
Speaking of Salamanders I saw they were removed. If any list needs them its this one. The main force is just so slow with 15cm tanks and 25cm transports. They were easy to keep at bay and prevent the crossfires that they desparately needed. The sentinels did very little. The Salamanders being AVs would have saved them vs LVs and the extra speed would have been hard to deal with.

Good points. They are back in when I run the next draft.

scarik wrote:
I think part of the reason for the lopsided victory was experience, particularly mine at using Superheavies and thus knowing what to do to beat them as well. My not having infantry didn't seem to be a problem and I didn't manage to bring all my Shadowsword's down on the Crassuses (Crassi?) but I think that would have made it much worse for him. Provided the damn things could hit... I missed twice with them and the rest of the time did 1 damage.

If you are interested I think it would be really valuable to get your feedback if you guys swapped armies, and you had a crack at using the list against your own. Understand if you're not interested, but thought I would be a bit cheeky and ask ;)
But thanks for saying as it is important to know when gauging performance.

scarik wrote:
Pointswise I only have one concern and that's the Tank Destroyer platoon. I would take tons of those since they are 50 points per tank cheaper in this list than the Minervan one, you can't take 3 tanks as a formation and you are limited to only 1 in a 6-tank platoon. Oh, and you've got them at AT3+ instead of the Minervan 4+.

I ported these directly over from the vraks list, and haven't modified them at all. In that list they are 3+MW rather than 4+TK so I guess that is toned down a little and the points are adjusted as a result. I'm not sure if the Vraks list was using an older version, or if they just made up their own. I'm reluctant to make a formation of 3 with TK weapons so will just leave it as is for now, and have a little think about what to do.

scarik wrote:
All that said, 100% would play against this list without prior warning.

Awesome to hear. Made my day. Thanks mate :D

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:13 pm 
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Personally I've always found the EUK LR Destroyer preferable. Not just in play but also fluff. They're very good at killing non RA armour and great ambushers.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:21 pm 
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AT2+ and sniper.
Hmm very interesting...

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Tank Hunters are odd ducks because they are not MW4+ with TK but just AT4+ with TK. I've never used them in Minervans since they cost a fortune. 115pts each just about, I'd rather spring for a Shadowsword any day at that price. ^^

I'm willing to swap lists and see how they play out.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:09 am 
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I take it that we are playing 11 inf plus commander (12) as Crassus only carry 6 stands


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:11 am 
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Played 2k's worth on V0.5, they faired excellently the AT on the Craassus plus when engaging the extra DC helped also.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:17 am 
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With regard to the 'fast movers' the Valks cover that with Storm Troopers, I kept mine far back then turn 3 snatched the blitz, will look forward to playing v0.6, would it make sense to replace the Las Canon with an autocanon?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:07 pm 
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STs in Valks cost 400 points while Salamanders cost 100. Its not really the same thing. I'd much rather have Salamanders to act as speedbumps and objective snatchers than have to use STs to fill that role since they have a lot more going for them.

0.6 has Crassus carrying 7 infantry so they can fit the whole company.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:42 am 
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Yep the Crassus has a capacity of 35 men, so I've translated that to 7 stands in epic.

I've got a draft of v0.7 with the salamanders back in. I've kept them the same as in the previous versions.
I've also got the centaurs back in as a transport option for the stormtroopers alongside the Valkyries, to give the option of getting the formation size right up.

I'll hold off on pulling the trigger on another update until I get some more games in.
So if anyone else has some feedback then now is as good a time as any to give it.
Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:01 pm 
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That certainty becomes one zippy and huge ST formation with those centaurs.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:13 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
some feedback then now is as good a time as any to give it.


At the moment the Heavy Tank Company can get one extra Macharius from within its
basic listing and then add another three from the upgrades list. Think it makes for a
very large formation in a game-meta that encourages lots of activations so is not really
a problem, but wanted to check that you were OK with that.

More generally there is no statement that a core company can only take each upgrade once.
Perhaps that was intended?

In a "real life" situation I'd be tempted to allocate out the AA assets to the core formations.
It is possible to allocate a Hydra but this is possibly problematic in game terms. A single
armoured vehicle (AV) in an otherwise war-engine formation can be independently targeted
by AT fire. I realise that it can also hide behind the war-engines and therefore not be seen
which might be useful for keeping it alive. And also it takes fire away from the heavy vehicles
which might be good, . . . . ? Hiding Hydras behind Macharius tanks would look a little odd,
as in gamey, to me.

Keeping the heavier AA assets, Praetor Sky-Killers, more centralised seems reasonable. But
I was wondering about allowing them to be attached to a regular company. They would be
war-engines too and avoid the above game issues. Might be a bit overpowering, given their
capabilities and spreading them around? Was thinking +125 points - same as a Macharius Omega.
At that price point there would be a 50 points surcharge for two and you would lose an activation.
Their 60 cm range and 10 cm coherency (within a platoon of two) means they have a pretty
large AA umbrella anyway, along with a fair resilence, so I don't see it as essential.

Hoping the Storm Troopers are keeping the option of Valkyries along with the Centaur alternative.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:51 am 
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You can't pick out an AV in an mixed AV-WE formation. You can choose to shoot only the WEs but if you cn't focus the WEs then all AT hits are allocated normally. So long as the hydra isn't out in front then the Wes will soak up some hits first.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:16 am 
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Quote:
3.2.1. 2nd Paragraph:
If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.

That looks to me like AT shots are against either WE or AV, not against (WE) or (WE and AV).


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:44 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
Quote:
3.2.1. 2nd Paragraph:
If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation.

That looks to me like AT shots are against either WE or AV, not against (WE) or (WE and AV).


...well I'll be damned. I thought it was just that you could pick out WEs if you wanted to. Thanks for the correction.


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