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Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.

 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:01 am 
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Gracias.
I've added the updated list to the first post now too. I think there may have been firewall problems. Or some sort of interweb problem like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:24 pm 
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I was looking at the list with a mind to fielding a 'usual' IG army while giving the variable company structure a shake. Noticed that the Heavy Mechanised company has a bit of an issue with the Crassus to Chimera upgrade giving you one too few transport slots to carry the commander and the six infantry. Maybe change that upgrade to four chimera? In the Steel Legion the command gets his own ride anyway, so it's not too out of character to give four.

That aside, I -REALLY- like the modular structure while keeping the very characterful big 'deathblob' formation style. There's a lot of good formations possible and a lot of formations that could be so easily modified (Leman Russes instead of Macharius in the Heavy Tank formations) that, with testing, could produce a template for a familiar looking but really flexible and novel way to pick many different styles of Guard army.

tl;dr - big fan, loving your work. Looking forward to it continuing and maybe expanding!


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Hmm, I didn't even think about that with the commander and chimeras. Good pickup DK!

I'll add another one in to the company entry up the top. So it will be replace the Crassus with four chimeras instead of three. All the company platoons can stay at three then.

You can take some interesting Russ formations at the moment, with a mix of infantry in chimeras and Russes, but it lacks that Russ command tank and initial Russ platoon. I could add that in easily enough, and get rid of the six Russ support formation perhaps. It wasn't really what I thought would suit the feel of this list, as I wanted to stick to an emphasis on the 2dc tanks.
What do people think about adding in the Russ company and removing the Russ support formation.

The other one that popped into my head while was procrastinating the other day was adding in artillery as company platoons. So you could have a fairly competent blitz guard composed of six manticores and some infantry for defending them.

Glad you like it DK, thanks for the feedback! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:44 am 
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I like the list, but was wondering: Why does the Crassus have a 2x Heavy Bolter option (in addition to the mandatory 2x Heavy Bolter) when that's clearly inferior to the 2x Autocannon option? I get why it may be there purely for the sake of 'completeness', but it'd be cool if it could offer an actual tactical choice as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:56 am 
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The heavy Bolter options are inferior to the Autocannon sponsons in every way.

I thought about balancing the sponson options agains each other, by adding +1 to its FF value if it takes heavy bolters or similar, but thinking about it is as far as I have gotten with that!

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:20 am 
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As much as I'd like to have them, I think as a company option for the Heavy Mech. Guard Leman Russes are unecessary. The focus on big DC2 stuff is novel and interesting and gives the list a good feel, something that really validates it as being separate from the Steel Legion and Ulani/Minervan lists. I also think the Russ support formation could be killed off. As long as they're available as trios to support other formations I think they still have a good place for people to use existing models without being too central to theme.

Interesting thought about the artillery company, would you go command infantry and three artillery as a core, three artillery plus 2-4 upgades or six artillery and 1-3 upgrades?


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:58 am 
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Matty_C wrote:
The other one that popped into my head while was procrastinating the other day was adding in artillery as company platoons. So you could have a fairly competent blitz guard composed of six manticores and some infantry for defending them.

What about mortars (or towed guns) as an addition, in parallel to the support platoon.
Six mortars for some cost, instead of the six 2xautocannon stands.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:50 am 
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Doomkitten wrote:
...stuff about tanks...

Yep. Agreed that they need to be an addition to the list, not a key part.
As it is now you can have six attached to each company fairly easily and cheaply. That's plenty for now.

Doomkitten and Andrew_NZ wrote:
...stuff about artillery...]

I was thinking add a company platoon of 3x mobile artillery (Basilisks, Medusas or Bombards), but really, for this list at least, if I add any to the companies it should be the Praetor and Dominus.
But from an internal balance point of view I think that is a pretty bad idea, as they are both pretty powerful units and I don't want to make them too accessible.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:32 am 
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While I'm on the wish list, . . . . what about the a Cyclops upgrade option for the Storm Troopers (and perhaps the infantry companies as well).

Quote:
The Crassus is capable of transporting up to 35 soldiers in its expansive armoured hold, and is also able to carry up to two Cyclops Demolition Tanks. I


Quote:
The Cyclops Remote Demolition Vehicle is a small, unarmed remote-controlled tank used by the Imperial Guard that can be guided to its target and then self-destruct, destroying itself and its target. These small tanks are controlled remotely by a single, specially-trained Imperial Guardsman. The vehicle is controlled by a small handset connected to a communications backpack, while the controller keeps himself at a safe distance.

In the 41st Millennium, the Cyclops has been used regularly throughout the Imperium by the Imperial Guard for any demolition task deemed too risky for human soldiers to accomplish. The Imperial Guard regiments that have used the Cyclops have great affection for it as it keeps them out of harm's way. The Cyclops is primarily used to attack enemy bunkers, strongpoints, and obstructions such as razorwire and tank traps. Imperial Guardsmen have found them useful for other tasks such as clearing minefields, destroying bridges, attacking fortified enemy structures during urban combat, and even attacking enemy tanks.


Sounds like: Expendable, Single Shot, Ignore Cover, Close Combat only, probably with infiltrate, about the speed of a Leman Russ so move 20 cm (or with infiltrate perhaps move 10-15 cm doubling into combat), certainly MW, maybe TK(D3), but close combat only (I know I already said that. Could fill the extra transport slot for the Crassus transport(7). A single unit upgrade per formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Ooh I like that Andrew!
I'm away from home at the moment, but I'll check out my copy of Imperial Armour when I get home in s few days, and read up on them. Nice one!

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Just a reminder that the cyclops features rather heavily in the Elysian drop trooper list already. We should probably use those stats, whatever they happen to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:27 pm 
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Thanks Jimmy.
I've got 3 hours on a plane coming up so I'll get acquainted with it then.
Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:41 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Just a reminder that the cyclops features rather heavily in the Elysian drop trooper list already.
We should probably use those stats, whatever they happen to be.


Review of Previous Discussion

So I had a look through the Elysian thread here on Taccoms, a couple of places elsewhere and some inter-web pages.

Initially on the Elysium Drop List the Cyclops was:
Light Vehicle, Armour 6+, Speed 20 cm, FF nil, CC 2+
Demolition Charge, Assault Weapon, MW
Teleport. Immediately removed from play if it attacks an enemy in close combat, and does not count as killed for combat resolution, or generate a blast maker after the engagement is concluded.
Formation Upgrade, 3 Cyclops units for 75 points.

There was lots of discussion about it having Light Vehicle vulnerability in an infantry formation, . . .

Some discussion about how far it could get from its controller, and how that translates to coherency in Epic.
Including the scout ZoC tricks that would come with that characteristic.

Back and forth about being a separate unit or a character upgrade or something else.
It gained and lost Expendable but mostly has it still and was eventually given Infiltrator.

Discussion about its damage capability centred around memory or earlier 40K rules.
It was originally in "IA1" as an S8 AP2 charge, whatever that means.
Then later in IA8 it says Armour Piercing 3.
Sadly that seems to mean it was switched down from a CC MW weapon.

Notes from a more recent (?) inter-web page gives
http://cadiascreed40k.blogspot.co.nz/2014/11/astra-militarum-tactics-cyclops-demo.html wrote:
Its weapon profile is essentially an earthshaker cannon with S9 AP3 Ordnance, large blast.

Perhaps the large blast radius means it might have an EA (+1) for CC, if the S9 does not merit MW.

It seems definitely odd that something "the size of a landrover" packed with explosives - a demolition charge - does not have more potency, . . . . but then it is Warhammer 40K !?

The drop away from MW left it underpowered or over-costed and there was a price drop.

It wound up, five or six years ago - not much "development" since - as a formation upgrade, 3 units for 50 points.
Elysian_Drop_Troop_Army_List_v3.1.5a.pdf wrote:
Light Vehicle, 20 cm move, Armour 6+, CC 3+, FF nil,
Demolition Charge, range 15 cm, AP4+/AT4+, One Shot,
Infiltrator, Teleport. The Cyclops is removed from play (causing no Blastmarkers) if it is used in an attack.

"The Demolition Charge as ranged weapon represents the Cyclops racing forward at top speed more or less blind into an enemy formation and exploding.
While it's CC-attack represents a more cautious approach through the controller who would be able to move the Cyclops to a juicy target to cause maximum damage."



Conclusions - Observations


Nobody seems to have discussed transporting this vehicle (the Cyclops) since in the Elysian list it teleports in with an infantry formation.
Losing Teleport, as it effectively would if added to a Mechanised Infantry formation would make it, again, underpowered or over-costed? Getting blast markers for "teleporting" a robot vehicle seemed odd to some.

The fluff I read (as opposed to 40K rules which I don't know) suggested it was a bunker buster.
Without MW that is not well reflected. I quite like my idea of an Extra Attack option reflecting the large blast radius.

As a Light Vehicle it cannot enter buildings - OK given its size - but I'd have though it could just drive up to one,
detonate and bring the whole thing down. Vehicle size bomb and all.

Perhaps the Elysian Drop version of the Cyclops has less explosive (so it can be air-lifted) than a Heavy Mech version,
riding to war in a DC 2 war-engine heavy transport.

Coming out of a vehicle into an engagement means that the Cyclops would also effectively lose much of its Infiltate ability.
I understand that the infiltrate double move distance only applies to a regular move, not the 5 cm dismount.

Still keen on seeing the vehicle included in a fluffy way. Especially since I have just mounted up four bases of "count as"
Demolitions wados from the Solar Empire Marines Engineering Packs by C-in-C Miniatures.
Weirdly I might just use the stands for count as Ogryns. Having a couple of models on the stand lets me imagine
they are being used once per turn and perhaps the Crassus is carrying extras in the "not-Ogryn" interior space.
CC4+, EA(+1) MW sounds much more like a solid demolition charge to me. The support group can provide the FF value
or the lower FF value just means a hasty fairly blind dash forward into the general position of an enemy formation.

Looking forward to hearing what you think. Sorry for the long discourse, . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:30 am 
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Thanks for the intel Andrew, and the summary of the status quo.

FYI Large blast in 40k is pretty common. Basilisks, battle cannons, demolisher cannons etc. It doesn't necessarily translate to anything "big" in epic terms.

I've had a read through my Imperial Armour (second edition) book from forgeworld, and the cyclops is probably a little underwhelming in epic terms. It is basically a single shot basilisk, strength 9 AP3, large blast, with some special rules for fixed buildings that I can't remember after a couple of beers. It is slightly better than a leman russ battle cannon.

I guess the strength of the cyclops is that it doesn't scatter though, so it's more reliable than a basilisk shot.

Interestingly it is "infantry" in 40k, not a vehicle. It is extremely bulky, which means it takes up the same room as 1 infantry stand.

I'd probably go with the final elysian version of the unit, but change unit type to infantry.
Replace 2 stormtroopers with up to 3 cyclops. Free.

Thoughts?

Also, while I'm fishing for feedback:


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 Post subject: Re: Fan-List. Heavy Mechanised IG.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Hi. I was always interested in an IG Heavy Tank list, so I was quite intrigued by this list based on the Macharious / Crassus / Praetor. I like the focus on the DC2 War Engines, as we can already run DC3 SHT army using either the Steel Legion or Minervan Tank Legion Army Lists.

I had some questions based on initial impressions (apologies if these have been discussed before):

1) I find the company selection of Platoon choices confusing. e.g. for Heavy Tank Company I presume it can take Macharius Platoon, Maxgarius Omega Platoon and Praetor SK Platoon. Can it take any others? If not then I think it would be neater jsu to state that you can add 1-3 Macharius OR Macharius Omega OR Praetor SK. The old adage of KISS.

2) Why have you got the option of substituting Crassus for Chimera? This to me takes away from the focus on DC2 War Engines. If you want mechanised infantry in Chimeras then there are several other IG lists that already cater for this. It also clutters up the list with unnecessary options IMO.

3) Do we need Hellgounds as a Platoon choice? Presumably there because of FF and AP firepower. Again adding more Chimera chassis to a DC2 War Engine list.

4) Why have you got the option of Tank Platoon of 3 Leman Russes? As above this takes away from the focus on DC2 War Engines. Again there are lots of other IG lists that allow for LR. and so just provides further clutter of unnecessary options IMO.

For me the appeal of this list is to be able to get to play with models that you can't use in SL or Minervan Lists. It is more likely to move closer to Approved status if it has a few less options, You see many fan lists that just take the basic list and then add on stuff, without any disadvantages or restrictions. I think this List has a very solid base, but would be easier to move from Fan List towards Approved if it had a few more restrictions.

Of course if you are happy keeping it as a Fan list then feel free to disregard my comments!!
:) :)
Cheers

James

PS: Just thought - it would be worth comparing this IG Heavy Tank List to AM Cataphract list for any similarities and differences. These two lists would have some overlap and these areas of overlap should be consistent.

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