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State of the Guard?

 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:56 am 
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If you wait a few weeks you can probably get some more playtests of proposals in. The NDC set a 12 week period of testing to be done on all proposals and some of them are really interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:56 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Responding to your comments in the other locked thread I don't see a problem with adjusting points costs to balance units personally and it's not like there isn't a LOT of precedent - compare the SM list in the printed Epic rulebook with the Net-EA list and 14 out of the 28 formations and upgrades have had their costs changed.

Not to put words in Rug's mouth but I think the issue with points adjustments is really that they've been rejected previously to fix these units. There's a desire to keep the artillery company at the same point value, so improving the lackluster units seems preferred over adjusting points.

Similarly for the Baneblade, plus the unit has clear deficiencies that a simple points adjustments doesn't quite fix. In the locked thread I showed that the cheaper Baneblade Company still has anemic damage output at medium/long range for what you're paying. At the same time, you're accidentally making the cheapest 4+ RA unit in the game. Check this out:

Code:
Formation            DC   Cost   Cost/DC
Baneblade Co (NDC)   9    425    47.22
Plague Tower*        6    325    54.17
Baneblade Co         9    500    55.56
Baneblade (NDC)      3    175    58.33
Exocrine             3    175    58.33
Stompa, Uge          9    575    63.89
Leman Russ Co        10   650    65.00
Stompa, Big          6    400    66.67
Baneblade            3    200    66.67
Lord of Battle*      6    400    66.67
Stompa               3    225    75.00
Decimator            3    225    75.00
Landraider           4    325    81.25
Hierodule*           4    350    87.50
Hierophant*          6    525    87.50
Thunderhawk          2    200    100.00


Fingers crossed that formatting works. We really need bbcode tables here. Anyway those are all the 4+ RA units purchased as formations (not upgrades) I could find that didn't have void shields/holofields/etc. Units with an asterisk have an Inv save and/or Regenerate.

You can see dropping the Baneblade points as proposed would make it cheaper than any other 4+ RA unit per DC by a wide margin. (You can also see that the Plague Tower seems like a worrisome outlier). If any unit deserves to be at the top of that table, it's the Stompa, and for what it's worth the NDC Baneblade Company would even be cheaper than the NDC Stompa Uge formation.

I would much rather soften the Crit effect and increase long range damage output to make the tank attractive and still keep it in the realm of normal unit stats and costs.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:19 am 
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Thanks for this GrimDarkBits, Baneblades will indeed not be getting any cheaper than they are!

I'm most interested in seeing the 200pt Bombards, 225pts Basalisks, 250pts Manticores, this proposal has way more promise imo, try as I might I'm not sure they can ever be equal.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:27 pm 
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RugII wrote:
Thanks for this GrimDarkBits, Baneblades will indeed not be getting any cheaper than they are!


So will you leave them as they are stat-wise too?

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Baneblade discusson aside, the aversion to changing points is a strange one and in contrast with every other list, where changing points has been far preferable to changing stats and list structure. To expect a roster to always have the same points value over 15 years is unrealistic IMO. Look at the marine list and see how much has changed - very few stats, tons of points changes.

Don't get me wrong, there are many units where points adjustments are not the answer, eg because it's either a must include or lacks an important role, but preserving the points value of every combination of list choices over time seems impossible and undesirable.

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:23 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
RugII wrote:
Thanks for this GrimDarkBits, Baneblades will indeed not be getting any cheaper than they are!


So will you leave them as they are stat-wise too?

I believe Rug has said to test them with the main gun having 2 shots and making the criitical +1 damage rather than auto-kill.


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 Post subject: Re: State of the Guard?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:11 am 
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GlynG wrote:
mordoten wrote:
RugII wrote:
Thanks for this GrimDarkBits, Baneblades will indeed not be getting any cheaper than they are!


So will you leave them as they are stat-wise too?

I believe Rug has said to test them with the main gun having 2 shots and making the criitical +1 damage rather than auto-kill.


This is what's being tested, got another game arranged for Monday


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