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[Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army

 Post subject: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:24 pm 
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I thought it would be cool with an Imperial Guard Cavalry Army. The vision is some kind of mix between Imperial Russia, my little pony, and ww1 tanks. And of course some Winged Lancers (Poland tm). I haven't decided on names and such, I just wanted something to show, ask for help and start building from. Read all in this post before reading the lists. Please :)

Design ideas:
Cavalry is the main focus
No unmounted infantry. The requirement to bring at least two cavalry formations and the fairly expensive and slow tanks should encourage this. If the played lists tend to bring more non-cavalry than cavalry, something is wrong and should be changed.

This is a breakthrough army
Heavy barrage - make a breakthrough and then exploit. To make the INF-units mobile and "breakthroughish", Infiltrate is a important part of the army.


How to do this:
First: Mounted Infantry (Dragoons). Pretty standard imperial guard infantry with horses. So they are Mounted, have a speed of 20 cm and infiltrate. To simulate that they are just mounted infantry, the special rule with the same name let them use some terrain as INF.

Second: Specialist Cavalry in form of Lancers (death riders) and Guards Cavalry (Baran sappers/stormtroopers on horses), Light Lancers (rough riders) and a variety of support weapons to Dragoons.

Third: Leaders! I thought it was colorful and suiting if the brave cavalry had some both some different Commanders and banner bearers. And it might get them a much needed helping hand in being an engagement army.
Special Rule:
Battle Honors.
All Mounted Battalions rides to war under the banners with battle honours. This gives the Formation Leader.

Fourth: Heavy, lumbering tanks. Super Heavies and Ragnaroks.

Fifth: There has to be some Imperial Navy and Titan Legion support. I want the Cavalry to do the engagements, so I didn’t give the option of single Warhounds. But two Warhounds are more in style of a Titan Cavalry ;) I have had thoughts of changing the armament to be something more breakthrougish, but couldn’t come up with anything. Besides, I suspect that the army don’t need more choices under 300 pts. I left out the Reaver without much thought, but included the Warlord. Again, a special pattern warlord could be fun.

Well. This was my thoughts about the list.



Changes to 1.2

- DRAGOONS: Cuirassiers (guards) are now an upgrade to Dragoons (and so are the Supreme Commander). Only Fire Support/Mortars for the Dragoons. And no Dragoon support units.
- LANCERS: The same.
- SCOUTS: Light Lancers are now called Recon Company and are Lancers with Scout.
- SUPPORT: The Dragoon Support formation became a Horse Limbers + Big Guns formation. I first also had the Medusa Platform, but since the AA is needed and BP Howitzer enjoyed there wasn't any space left. But it might come back. The lighter AA also moved to...
- TACHANKA: A personal favorite in military history. I based it on the Siegfried Light Tank, and added a option with some short range AA.
- TANKS1: Standard IG Super Heavy Tanks. Standard 3 tank formations and support option with 1.
- TANKS2: Added the Ragnarok tank.
- TANKS3: I wanted some kind of assault gun/"breacher tank" and first had the Thunderer in the list, but I rather wanted some which could be based on the Ragnarok chassis. Medusa gun or Demolisher cannon?


Attachments:
Imperial Guard - 1.2 qrs.pdf [41.28 KiB]
Downloaded 33 times
Imperial Guard - 1.2 list.pdf [52.38 KiB]
Downloaded 32 times


Last edited by Elrik on Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Looks really cool! However, i would probably make it way more streamlined and simple.

I would put back commisars in, because they are needed in IG armies. I would take out all the specialist mounted inf (like the AA-guys and the fire support) and add in the normal flak, artillery and super heavy choices. What you could do is to do a rigid list structure with a ratio of 1:1 or 1:2 for core to support to force the player to have alot of Riding units. EDIT: I'm an idiot, you already had that structure in place...

That way you could have acces to all the IG goodies (Hydras, Deathstrikes and Shadowswords are awesome and very much needed in IG armies).

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Interesting

I think I agree with Mordoten. It need to be streamlined and simplified a bit. There is to many similar units in it.
And definitely add the commissar. The Militarium wouldn't allow an army without them, also an assault heavy army really like the Inspiring rule.

Regarding the dragoon. Wouldn't it be simpler (and more correct) to allow them to choose if they are mounted and on foot before each activation. If there are mounted they have 20cm movement but terrain problems, if they are on foot they move 15cm but have no problems with terrain. Would also skip Infiltrate for dragoon since they are not known to charge in.

Agree that the dragoons should be those that should have access to heavier weapons. Auto guns/machine gun and mortar seems like those that is most likely carried by horses. Also think it easier to have just a dragoon formation them an upgrade to add/or replace a number of specialist dragoons to the formation instead of having two different formations.

Strongly agree with the backup of heavy artillery. Would change it to stationary pieces with 0cm movement that have some kind of horse carriage with them that can transport them 10cm. Also think the AA should belong to the artillery part instead of be a part of the dragoons.

Regarding garrison. Should it be enough to just let the scout cavalry garrison?

Could the Ragnarök from the Baran list be a good starting point for the tanks?

Personally I would skip the titans but that since I think it is rather boring to have them in every list. Hover I think they would be useful for this list both as AV and for the speed.

Regarding the speed. Is it to mush to have some scouts with 25 or even 30cm move to give the list some speed?

Not so found of the guard cavalry part. Does seem a bit out of place with the rest 19th century/wwi inspired parts. I guess the idea is to give it a bit of anti-tank capacity? Is it needed or can that be a deliberate weakness of the list? However it guess it already have a weakness in lacking both speed and armour so it might be to much ?

I like the toughs it and will definitely follow it.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:30 am 
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Thanks for feedback! :)
Please give some examples of where it needs to be streamlined. I tried to keep the options and number of units down very much. Compared to Baran Siegemasters it has less units (I didn't count Fortifications/Navy/Titans), and less options of formations (more Battalions, but less Support Formations), and less Formation upgrades.


I will redo the Dragoons a bit, but I think I'll stick with the infiltrate for units without support weapons. Without it the army might have too few units that really can Engage. The reason for "Heavy Dragoons" was to give the Cavalry Battalions some kind of ranged attack, that didn't spill over to other formations when the Dragoons are just "close defense" for tanks or artillery.
I like the idea with the different speed options, but I want to keep the number of special rules low.

The Guards were inspired (and named after) 16th/early 17th century Cuirassiers (heavily armoured with pistols) and meant to give a MW-option to the army. I admit that they are not really ww1-feeling, but there should be some kind of elite/tankhunters in the army.

Commissars. Depending on how I change the dragoons and the commanders, I might resurrect them. I first wrote a Mounted Commissar-rule that placed them in the Cavalry Battalions, Winged Lancers or Guards before any other units, as would be appropriate "fluff-wise". Ruleswise they just add Leader and Inspiring to the formation that is killable, and Fearless to one unit. The Battle Honors/Banners rule were meant to substitute the Leader effect (even making it a little stronger since it can't be lost), and then the primary Engage unit got Inspiring (and the HQ) and the tough Guards got a Fearless.
I still have the problem of three basic units (Dragoons, Lancers, Guards) that need three different Commanders, or do they....? I have to think about it. I don't want to many characters.

I were thinking of horse drawn heavy artillery, and I think I'll give it a try.

I'd rather not bring in all the usual IG-stuff. The Ragnarök is cool, but I want to try the DC2-idea first.


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:00 pm 
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On streamlining the list: I would only have 3 different types of mounted infantry (not counting characters of course). I would take out the AA-units, fire support units and mortar units. The infiltrate should be balanced against some drawback. I would give all the mounted inf walker as well since they're specialised in mounted warfare.

Instead you you could use Blitzen AA guns for AA and Griffons for light artillery. This army probably shouldnt have long ranged artillery, deatstrikes or fire support units int heir ranks.

To bad you don't like the Ragnaröks beacuse they would fit this theme very well. IMO a problem with list design is sometimes that the AC wants to do a unique list to the degree that it overlooks already existing units (that have the benefit of already being tested in approved lists) that could fill the role another more uncommon unit are considered for.
but it is of ciourse up to you since it's your list. I'll keep following the development because i like your idea!

Oh, and I would for sure add in singelton warhounds since all guards except DKoK will always need that help. Sad but true.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:43 pm 
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I like Ragnaröks, I just wanted to try the Warengine-idea first.


Save for the Malcador/Valdor/Minotaur - the only new units are the Guards cavalry, Commanders and soon to be no more Heavy Dragoons. The WE are taken from the Vraks list, but changed as some people in that thread suggested (to make them more different from the Leman Russ). So, the units are mostly tested, but the composition of the list is new. I haven't overlooked anything I believe. (I did think of the Ragnarok/Siegfried as well when I wrote the list.)
The mortar inf are from NetEA Krieg - with the addition of speed and mounted. I choose between them and EpicUK version light artillery with AP/AT-fire. The AA is from Cadian list - with the same addition. So I have tweaked some existing units to fit the theme. Basically the Guards are the same, Baran Sappers, but I gave the meltaguns. Horses doesn't like fire. But perhaps i should give them the Heavy flamers back...


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Quote:
The Guards were inspired (and named after) 16th/early 17th century Cuirassiers (heavily armoured with pistols) and meant to give a MW-option to the army. I admit that they are not really ww1-feeling, but there should be some kind of elite/tankhunters in the army.

Ahh got it. Why not keep the name Cuirassiers for them. Hmm an image show up in my head with cavalry heavily armed with melta/plasma/flamer pistols caracole the enemies :)

Don't agree with Mordoten to skip the fire support units. Would suggest to keep one AP (autocannon?) and one AT (lascannon) that could be added to the dragoons. But keep the BP and AA to the artillery part.

I'm more into streamlining the formations than reducing the number of units. An example could be

Formation - Upgrades
Lancer Battalion - Supreme Commander. Curassiers
Dragoon Battalion - Supreme Commander, Fire support

Uppgrade
Curassiers: Replace up to X lancers with Curassiers
Fire Support: Replace up to X dragoons with Ap or At fire support

Support Formations (max n per formation)
Artillery formations - Field artillery or AA guns
Heavy Tank squadroon
Scout squadroon - Adding scouts to lancers

Standard Titan/Navy third

Also realized something a drawback with WE heavy tanks is that they can not garrison.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Thanks! Working a bit on the list right now, and will probably do a little of both yours and mordotens suggestions. Some fewer options, and use the good old Baneblade, Shadowsword and Stormsword instead. Still thinking of the Ragnarök... :eh


And the melta caracole is a wonderful thought :)


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Updated the first post a bit and added a new version of the list.


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:22 am 
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I like the changes. I was inspired to try to get a game with it during the weekend. Unfortunately the time wasn't there in the end :( But at least I had a few shots at building a few lists.

I think the only thing I reacted over was that the 25cm move for the Tachanka feels a bit wrong fluffwise regarding the 20cm move of the rest of the horses. However I think it is a wonderful addition to the list and I fear that the list need those fast moving units badly.

Things that I wanted to test in game is the Currassiers. They look rather dangerous with all those MW options. But at the same time they are just a weaker version of the land speeder. Also how the dragoons play. Is it worth taking them for the increase fire power even without the lances :)

Will see if I get a change the coming weeks to do a game with them. Will probably come back after that.

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:53 am 
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Happy to hear that you liked them. I'll try to get a game myself soon. I'll probably reduce the tachanka speed to normal horse speed.


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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:49 am 
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Finally got some game time.
See battle report here
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=33148&p=623003#p623003

Some random thoughts
* The Volos where really durable with that 4+ RA. Then I realized that they cost 400p so they do really pay for that durability.
* The Lancers perform as Rough Riders usually do. Either they hit hard once or they die in droves on the way. In this case they died a lot.
* The Dragoons was otherwise really impressive. I was a bit concerned to give up the extra attack and armor for some FF. But that extra threat range really made a difference and even though AP6+ is not much it at least a way to but blast markers on targets. And they work really good in combo with each other where one support and the other engage.
* The combined effect of the Regimental Banner and the commissar made the Dragoons and Lancers to bounce back fast after taking some damage.
* The Cuirassiers was really a point and destroy tool.
* I am however leaning towards that the Lancers might be a bit overpriced. Compared with a Rough Rider (or a Recon Company) you only get 3 extra for 150 pts (and a bit of armour).

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 Post subject: Re: [Experimental] Imperial Guard Cavalry Army
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Nice to read some feedback! I had hoper to get a game by now, but I hope that it can be next week. It seems like they function as intended, although cuirassiers were more meant to be some extra punch rather than ”point and click”. Thanks! :)


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